George Zimmerman makes initial court appearance in Trayvon Martin shooting, will plead not guilty

[vz71]

Martin may or may not have initiated the physical altercation, but he did not initiate the confrontation.

I must have missed this as well.
Where is the evidence to show this?

 

[jen_fla]

And once again Trevyon wasn’t a perfect child. But he was an A and B student. He had no criminal history, Zimmerman does. His friends say this was a guy who tried to avoid fights. How his case with beating up police got thrown out. And lets point out the judge may be dismissed due to connections with Zimmerman’s family. Part of the issue here is there’s real questions about how the police department handled this case from the beginning. Some are wondering if enough time was even spent reviving Trevyon. These cops didn’t even bother to inform his parents right away. This is why there’s so much anger and its based on HOW this case was handled from the beginning.

bold part:
i had read he had no ID on him, and so his body was taken in as a john doe until they could identify him. his father called the station (i believe the next day) and then he was given the sad news.

 

[catharina]

it also could be that they were just protecting a relative. they might have done the same thing if the homeless guy was white.

could be they were racist. could be it had to do with nepotism. could be they don’t think the homeless (of any race or gender) are worth their time.

All of that - could be, yes.

What WAS though:
black man beaten by white son of Sanford cop.
All of it caught on video.

Nothing can make those facts disappear.

 

[St_Francis]

I have to ask those who says its ridiculous to say Zimmerman was influenced by race. I have to ask what exactly was this boy doing that was sooo suspicious. He was walking down the street, and looking at houses in the middle of the night… How many of us do that.

The point is that we *do not know *what martin did which made his behavior suspicious to Zimmerman. It may be that Martin’s behavior was innocuous and that Zimmerman overreacted, but then again, it may be that Martin’s behavior actually was very suspicious.

The point is that since we do not know, we cannot say that Zimmerman overreacted, or reacted because of race, or anything at all.

…The burden should be on the person who SHOT and killed to prove at least with some accuracy that you were doing it in self defense. Justifiable homicides getting off has tripled in Florida since this law…

Under our Constitution, the prosecution bears the burden of proving its case for criminality beyond a reasonable doubt. This is to protect us, the people, from being arrested and taken to trial on anybody’s whim. The FL law clarifies this, gets rid of the “duty to retreat,” and protects people who have been ruled to have acted in self-defense from criminal and civil prosecution.

What this means is that if an elderly woman shoots her attacker and he survives with permanent injuries, there will be no Monday-night quarterbacking about why she didn’t retreat, and there will be no lawsuit forcing her to support the attacker. She will not have to spend every penny she’s got hiring lawyers after *someone else attacked her. *

Yes, it’s true that sometimes problems will show up on the edge of the law, but that happens the other way around as well, where elderly people have been forced to spend huge amounts of money defending themselves because younger people thought they could have retreated, and where people decided to sue them for having injured someone who was attacking them.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

**The point is that we *do not know ***what martin did which made his behavior suspicious to Zimmerman. It may be that Martin’s behavior was innocuous and that Zimmerman overreacted, but then again, it may be that Martin’s behavior actually was very suspicious.

The point is that since we do not know, we cannot say that Zimmerman overreacted, or reacted because of race, or anything at all.

Under our Constitution, the prosecution bears the burden of proving its case for criminality beyond a reasonable doubt. This is to protect us, the people, from being arrested and taken to trial on anybody’s whim. The FL law clarifies this, gets rid of the “duty to retreat,” and protects people who have been ruled to have acted in self-defense from criminal and civil prosecution.

What this means is that if an elderly woman shoots her attacker and he survives with permanent injuries, there will be no Monday-night quarterbacking about why she didn’t retreat, and there will be no lawsuit forcing her to support the attacker. She will not have to spend every penny she’s got hiring lawyers after *someone else attacked her. *

Yes, it’s true that sometimes problems will show up on the edge of the law, but that happens the other way around as well, where elderly people have been forced to spend huge amounts of money defending themselves because younger people thought they could have retreated, and where people decided to sue them for having injured someone who was attacking them.

Doesn’t stop people from going on conjecture for 4 threads.

People make tremendous ASSUMPTIONS based on their own subjective experiences.

 

[seekerz]

i’m with you on that, but again we still don’t know who put whose life in imminent danger first.

if it turns out that gz came at trayvon and put his life in danger, then yes, it would be a super tragedy that he wasn’t armed to defend himself, but by law he was underage. if that was the case then it is too bad he didn’t have another weapon to stand his ground with. if it were me, i would have broken the body of the glass ice tea bottle and cut him with the glass neck… or at least tried to.

if trayvon was legally able to carry a gun, and we had proof that say gz tackled him and started beating him and smashing head head against the concrete, would you wish that tm had a gun to shoot gz in order to defend himself? i know i would.

edit: i think you agreed in your above post, i was just confirming. and yes it is sad that we live in a world where we have to teach our kids about survival from the violent people in society.

I would say that any law which allows an armed adult to shoot a child but does not allow the child to similarly defend himself is a bad, terrible, unjust, law and is disrespectful of life. Kinda like making fight rules that say, you can throw mud in your opponent’s eyes if you’re bigger than him, but he must keep his eyes open and his hands clean.

 

[vz71]

mother of victim says yes thats sons voice yelling for help on police radio,

I’ll add that to the list.
Right after the statement that it was an accident and the statement that Tayvon was hunted down and killed.

 

[seekerz]

Doesn’t stop people from going on conjecture for 4 threads.

People make tremendous ASSUMPTIONS based on their own subjective experiences.

Again, that’s what these threads are for - discussion. It doesn’t bother me that people exercise their rights to free speech…why should it bother anyone?

 

[seekerz]

bold part:
i had read he had no ID on him, and so his body was taken in as a john doe until they could identify him. his father called the station (i believe the next day) and then he was given the sad news.

Why would they need ID? He was dead in a housing complex - why not knock on the doors?
I assume that if someone without ID was found dead in a car, they’d run the plates, no?

 

[vz71]

The people who rose up and demanded justice are the reason Zimmerman is having due process meted out. He should THANK them.

Are they also the same people advocating violence?
The same ones bringing about race based hatred?
The same ones that placed a bounty on another citizen?

I believe so.

 

[vz71]

3a Prosecutor refuses to issue arrest warrant.​

Why bother with that tedious little factoid? Let’s just go sit around the campfire and toast marshmallows…

The refusal is after a due investigation and a finding that there was insufficient evidence to bring about charges.

The process was followed to the letter.
The uproar is due to people not liking the findings.

 

[vz71]

I get the disctinct impression that some on this forum would rather the impending victim just be able to hand the murderer a flower. And give him a big hug.

No one is a murderer until the trial is done and the court finds such.

 

[jen_fla]

I have to ask those who says its ridiculous to say Zimmerman was influenced by race. I have to ask what exactly was this boy doing that was sooo suspicious. He was walking down the street, and looking at houses in the middle of the night… How many of us do that.

I’d also point out Zimmerman’s attitude towards this kid which I feel illustrates my point. He’s sitting there with 911 calling this kid a punk etc… He may be suspicious of this kid, but once again he observed this kid commit NO Illegal acts. Its not like Trevyon was screaming at the top of his lungs waking the neighborhood up. All of this is why I find the whole Zimmerman is completely innocent on this to be wrong. At the very least Zimmerman’s attitude is troubling. He may have a reason to be worried because of bulgaries but to call someone names for daring to walk down the street and look at houses. And complaining the get away, when at that moment the person has done nothing to warrant being “caught.”

Also this Stand Your Ground laws that the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt it wasn’t self defense is ridiculous. Look you shoot and kill an unarmed person. We already know you killed that person. The burden should be on the person who SHOT and killed to prove at least with some accuracy that you were doing it in self defense. Justifiable homicides getting off has tripled in Florida since this law… Partly because people can just make sure their are no witnesses and then claim self defense. And since the prosecution has to prove “beyond reasonable doubt…” Yes, its beyond reasonable doubt when we don’t know IF you killed someone. But to prove beyond reasonable doubt your right to kill someone? Once its established you killed the person… Surely the burden goes on the person who killed to justify it. And it should be a STRONG burden if we as a society value life.

The facts are too that you can get vigiliantees doing what we had doing now and claiming STG. Once again this guy Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed teenager. Maybe in the end the story is correct but as far as I"m concerned even if because of Florida’s stupid law its different. The burden for me is on HIM to prove his story. Trevyon was unarmed.

And for those who say well all of us who carry guns are more responsible. I’m sure that there are many who are more responsible but idiots can get a hold of guns too and do some dangerous things with them.

maybe you should start another thread about gun rights. it’s complicated and for what it’s worth, i see nothing wrong with the stand your ground law. about half the country has them (although they vary somewhat), so don’t just think it is unique to florida.

as to this part:

I have to ask those who says its ridiculous to say Zimmerman was influenced by race. I have to ask what exactly was this boy doing that was sooo suspicious. He was walking down the street, and looking at houses in the middle of the night… How many of us do that.

I’d also point out Zimmerman’s attitude towards this kid which I feel illustrates my point. He’s sitting there with 911 calling this kid a punk etc… He may be suspicious of this kid, but once again he observed this kid commit NO Illegal acts. Its not like Trevyon was screaming at the top of his lungs waking the neighborhood up. All of this is why I find the whole Zimmerman is completely innocent on this to be wrong. At the very least Zimmerman’s attitude is troubling. He may have a reason to be worried because of bulgaries but to call someone names for daring to walk down the street and look at houses. And complaining the get away, when at that moment the person has done nothing to warrant being “caught.”

you are basing your opinion solely on the 911 call and not on what gz directly observed. you weren’t there. you don’t know. neither do i. it could be trayvon was actually casing out homes or maybe he was innocently trying to get out of the rain and was running under the roof lines. maybe he was walking a straight line home on the sidewalk and gz caught a brain parasite the week earlier and was rendered bat doo doo insane. however, without any proof, you can’t call him a racist. you can speculate as an individual, but for people who get the spotlight in the media it is irresponsible and wrong for them to make such accusations without any evidence.

you want to know exactly what he was doing that night, well so do the rest of us. we probably will never know though, unless a drone caught the whole thing on camera. if you would like further speculation you can go to my previous post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9181776&postcount=585

but until then, to call him a racist and to incite more racial tensions is flat out wrong.

 

[vz71]

All of that - could be, yes.

What WAS though:
black man beaten by white son of Sanford cop.
All of it caught on video.

Nothing can make those facts disappear.

And nothing can make that relevent to the Tayvon case.

 

[seekerz]

The point is that we *do not know *what martin did which made his behavior suspicious to Zimmerman. It may be that Martin’s behavior was innocuous and that Zimmerman overreacted, but then again, it may be that Martin’s behavior actually was very suspicious.

The point is that since we do not know, we cannot say that Zimmerman overreacted, or reacted because of race, or anything at all.

Under our Constitution, the prosecution bears the burden of proving its case for criminality beyond a reasonable doubt. This is to protect us, the people, from being arrested and taken to trial on anybody’s whim. The FL law clarifies this, gets rid of the “duty to retreat,” and protects people who have been ruled to have acted in self-defense from criminal and civil prosecution.

What this means is that if an elderly woman shoots her attacker and he survives with permanent injuries, there will be no Monday-night quarterbacking about why she didn’t retreat, and there will be no lawsuit forcing her to support the attacker. She will not have to spend every penny she’s got hiring lawyers after *someone else attacked her. *

Yes, it’s true that sometimes problems will show up on the edge of the law, but that happens the other way around as well, where elderly people have been forced to spend huge amounts of money defending themselves because younger people thought they could have retreated, and where people decided to sue them for having injured someone who was attacking them.

What is money compared to taking someone’s life? The error MUST always be on the side of life. Elderly people can murder people too; there’s no age limit to criminality. I’d say the law should simply prevent suits in cases where it can be shown by law enforcement (not just by one person’s word) that the person killed was committing a crime or threatening the killer’s life.

 

[catharina]

And nothing can make that relevent to the Tayvon case.

Of course.
Yet since the fact exists and is recent history for Sanford PD,
it’s much easier to understand why Trayvon’s folks made a fuss
and asked for further investigation.

 

[seekerz]

Of course.
Yet since the fact exists and is recent history for Sanford PD,
it’s much easier to understand why Trayvon’s folks made a fuss
and asked for further investigation.

I agree. Here’s an article outlining some of the pre-existing tensions in the community:
thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/28/zimmerman-s-twin-lakes-community-was-on-edge-before-trayvon-shooting.html

 

[jen_fla]

All of that - could be, yes.

What WAS though:
black man beaten by white son of Sanford cop.
All of it caught on video.

Nothing can make those facts disappear.

yes, they are facts. it is also a fact they both had pants on.

look, i’m not trying to make light of how serious racism is, but the issue is did a crime occur? if so was justice served? if a white cop beat a white homeless person and got away with it, it would have been just as wrong. same goes if a black cop beat a white or black homeless person. same goes if anyone of any color beats an innocent person of any color. wrong is wrong. and what was wrong was the beating and the failure of justice. the homeless man’s race has nothing to do with how wrong beating a person is.

 

[seekerz]

And nothing can make that relevent to the Tayvon case.

That is, if he lived in a space bubble. Unfortunately, he happened to be in a community on edge after some burglaries.

 

[SwizzleStick]

And once again Trevyon wasn’t a perfect child. But he was an A and B student. He had no criminal history, Zimmerman does. His friends say this was a guy who tried to avoid fights. How his case with beating up police got thrown out. **And lets point out the judge may be dismissed due to connections with Zimmerman’s family. ** …

Not exactly, at least not according to the article I posted earlier in the thread. Stepping down and being dismissed are two different things.

"Trayvon Martin Judge May Step Down Over Husband’s Boss

Florida Judge Jessica Recksiedler, who was assigned the Trayvon Martin shooting case, revealed a possible conflict of interest tied to her husband, a lawyer who works for a television legal analyst with ties to the defendant. "…

Blue excerpt from: bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-13/trayvon-martin-judge-may-step-down-over-husband-s-boss.html

…Part of the issue here is there’s real questions about how the police department handled this case from the beginning. Some are wondering if enough time was even spent reviving Trevyon. These cops didn’t even bother to inform his parents right away. This is why there’s so much anger and its based on HOW this case was handled from the beginning.

It is my understanding that Martin did not have any identification on him. How could the police inform his parents when they didn’t know who he was? Martin’s Dad called the police the next morning to report his son missing, so they were able to figure it out then, but not before.

Not to be nit-picky, but could you please try to spell Martin’s name properly? I know typos happen, but it really bothers me to see his name repeatedly spelled incorrectly when it has been all over the place for weeks.