German Church Tax: moral?

[Maximian]

In Germany, secular law obliges the faithful to pay a very steep tax to the Church with which you are registered.

I see several things wrong with this, but Id be interested to know others’ views. These are the difficulties, in my view:

1. The Church should not allow itself to be financially beholden to the State. It should be responsible for levying its own contributions from the faithful.
2. It breeds clerical complacency. The guarantee of cash fosters careerism.
3. It encourages clergy to go along with secular trends in order not to upset the financial status quo.
4. It deprives the faithful of the opportunity to sanction wayward or uncatholic clergy by withholding contributions

 

[White_Tree]

The Church should not allow itself to be financially beholden to the State. It should be responsible for levying its own contributions from the faithful.

The Church and the state were practically identical (or very closely wedded) for most of Church history. This arrangement hardly seems any worse than that.

It breeds clerical complacency. The guarantee of cash fosters careerism.

I can sort of see the complacency aspect of it, in terms of having less incentive to offer dynamic teaching or getting involved in the parish community. I’m not sure how careerism would emerge from this. Maybe you could expand on this?

It encourages clergy to go along with secular trends in order not to upset the financial status quo.

I don’t live in Germany, so I’m not sure how such a scenario would play out. Are you saying that if the clergy said something that upset the German government, that the government would remove the fiscal support it provides to the Church?

It deprives the faithful of the opportunity to sanction wayward or uncatholic clergy by withholding contributions

There is also the other side of that equation. Frequently, providing (real) religious instruction involves telling people things they don’t want to hear, or which make them very uncomfortable. Christ’s teachings made his contemporaries so disdainful of him that they literally murdered him.

A priest who is beholden to his flock for monetary support might feel reluctant to upset them in this way, and might therefore be tempted to tell people things that make them feel good, even if they aren’t true. That temptation is there anyways, even when there is no financial incentive involved. It can be that much worse when your livelihood depends on making people happy, rather than delivering them the truth.

So this sort of arrangement can remove at least one of the pressures to conform to the desires of the congregation, rather than to the Word of God.

In terms of sanctioning wayward clergy, couldn’t the bishop do that? And if someone really wanted to withhold monetary support from a particular priest, couldn’t they simply register at a different church and have their taxes directed to that church instead?

 

[Maximian]

Thank you for your thoughtful resoonse which potentially generates several conversations.

I will get back to you …

 

[Jbrady]

And if someone really wanted to withhold monetary support from a particular priest, couldn’t they simply register at a different church and have their taxes directed to that church instead?

That’s not a possibility in Germany. Your parish is determined strictly and exclusively by where you reside, and your place of legal residence is absolutely unambiguous, unlike the US where it is a more fuzzy concept that you could play around with.

I see several things wrong with this, but Id be interested to know others’ views.

There was, and sill is to some degree, a problem in that one’s declared religion is determined by Baptism during infancy, and the Church made it VERY difficult to opt out. If you wanted to leave the Church, you had to go through great lengths to jump through a series of tedious and humiliating hoops and pay a fee.

This got severely out of hand and entered scam territory when Poland joined the EU in 2004 and Polish workers entered the German job market en masse. The German bishops worked together with the Polish bishops to identify workers who had been Baptized as infants, and turned the list over to the government so that those individuals could be taxed.

Many of those people were no longer Catholic, or had ever been in any meaningful sense of the word. And many were hit with retroactive church tax bills. the only way to get out of paying at that time was to travel back to one’s baptismal parish in Poland in person and file an official statement of apostasy to get one’s name removed from the parish records, which was expensive, inconvenient, and humiliating.

The end result of it was that many people ended up hating the Church. I lived in Poland at the time and was horrified myself that this could happen. I had also previously lived in Germany, and when I did, the idea of a church tax seemed weird to my American mind, and still does.

The laws have been changed so that it is now a lot easier to opt out of the system, but not hassle free. It should be a strictly opt-in system that requires you to renew your status by checking a box on your tax form every year.

 

[Maximian]

The Church and the state were practically identical (or very closely wedded) for most of Church history. This arrangement hardly seems any worse than that.

Ok. There are arguments in favour and against the identification of church with state. But this is much worse as it is a secular state imposing rules on church polity. We are not in the situation of a Catholic state.

I can sort of see the complacency aspect of it, in terms of having less incentive to offer dynamic teaching or getting involved in the parish community. I’m not sure how careerism would emerge from t

Yes. A German priest who wants to win the approval of his Bishop can do so by doing whatever it takes to keep the tax contributions up. As these contributions come from people who are baptized but increasingly not practising, that means following actions that non practising people approve of.

Are you saying that if the clergy said something that upset the German government, that the government would remove the fiscal support it provides to the Church?

Yes. That is the damacletian sword which the secular state holds over the Church.

There is also the other side of that equation.

Yes that is a fair point. However in these times, the phenomenon of regular mass goers having to listen to uncatholic teaching from priests is more common than the other way round.

 

[1ke]

The Church should not allow itself to be financially beholden to the State. It should be responsible for levying its own contributions from the faithful.

That’s an American idea.

It breeds clerical complacency. The guarantee of cash fosters careerism.

Careerism? IDK what you are even talking about.

BTW, the tax supports Catholic hospitals, schools, and social services, not just parishes.

It encourages clergy to go along with secular trends in order not to upset the financial status quo.

I don’t see evidence of that in Germany.

It deprives the faithful of the opportunity to sanction wayward or uncatholic clergy by withholding contributions

That’s a sin. So, yeah not a reason at all.

Also an American idea.

 

[Buks]

I’d guess one benefit is some stability, as their government distinguishes (as I understand things, at least) between organizations claiming to be authentic religions (e.g. scientology).

On the other hand, I’d be interested to hear how this might be associated with the unorthodox things I hear about some German bishops in recent years.

 

[Maximian]

I’d be interested to hear how this might be associated with the unorthodox things I hear about some German bishops in recent years.

It’s directly connected, because it is the government providing the means for a massive financial contribution and, to quote an old proverb, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

The sums are enormous. Individuals must pay at least 8 percent of their entire income. In 2015 the Church received 6 billion euros (6.6 billion dollars) in this way.

 

[Maximian]

That’s an American idea.

Incorrect. The principle of Ecclesiastical independence is as old as the Church. The American idea you are talking about is that the state and the church should be unconnected.

 

[Maximian]

I don’t see evidence of that in Germany.

Are you kidding!!! The Church in Germany is hell bent on following every secular idea going. Women priests, gay marriage, abortion, you name it. Why else do they want a “synodal path?”

 

[CTBcin]

Maximian:

It encourages clergy to go along with secular trends in order not to upset the financial status quo.

I don’t see evidence of that in Germany.

HAHAHAHAHA!

Germany has been going along with secular trends for at least the past 50 years. The German Catholic hierarchy is the richest in the world. They should have gobs of resources to evangelize the world around them. I don’t see that happening. Instead, I see them focusing on their pet projects, like promoting gay marriage and married priests.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think it’s a dumb idea, but I don’t live in Germany so I don’t get a vote.

Very happy with the US model.

 

[Maximian]

That’s a sin. So, yeah not a reason at all.

No it isn’t. You can make your contribution direct to the Vatican or to the church across the border. No one should be obliged to support a runaway train like the German church. And the state should definitely not oblige you to pay EIGHT percent of your entire gross income if you don’t want to.

 

[CTBcin]

Perhaps the thing that makes me the most uncomfortable is the fact that one’s being able to receive the sacraments is based on whether they’ve paid their church tax.

 

[Maximian]

Im not sure that’s true. I don’t think priests turn people away from communion. But I may be wrong.

 

[CTBcin]

Im not sure that’s true. I don’t think priests turn people away from communion. But I may be wrong.

I’m thinking more about baptisms, marriages, etc.

 

[Jbrady]

I’m thinking more about baptisms, marriages, etc.

No funerals, either.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I don’t live in Germany, so I’m not sure how such a scenario would play out. Are you saying that if the clergy said something that upset the German government, that the government would remove the fiscal support it provides to the Church?

I don’t know if that is the case. But the German clergy is generally supportive of the government. Look at Cardinal Marx for example, talks away topics like contraception but is completely behind the government on things like taxes and immigration.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

The sums are enormous. Individuals must pay at least 8 percent of their entire income. In 2015 the Church received 6 billion euros (6.6 billion dollars) in this way.

I think the 8 percent figure is a high ball, maybe true under very special circumstances. When I was living in Germany I payed way less than that. More like 1.5 percent.

 

[White_Tree]

Many of those people were no longer Catholic, or had ever been in any meaningful sense of the word. And many were hit with retroactive church tax bills. the only way to get out of paying at that time was to travel back to one’s baptismal parish in Poland in person and file an official statement of apostasy to get one’s name removed from the parish records, which was expensive, inconvenient, and humiliating.

You’re right. That does sound annoying.

How does it work if someone changes religions?

I know in my old parish, many of the parishioners left and became Protestants. Is that a possibility in Germany?