M
Maximian
Guest
Correct.
It’s discriminatory.
It’s discriminatory.
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G
GodIsPerfection
Guest
You are addressing the topic of the “Kirchensteuer” (Church Tax) in Germany. Generally, I agree completely with your viewpoint.
The Kirchensteuer taxes individuals 8 - 9% of their gross income. It was instituted in 1803, and after collapse of the German Empire in 1918, became the main source of church revenue in Germany.
The German State collects the money and distributes it to Catholic or Lutheran church organizations at the Dioceses level, and these organizations redistribute the money to local parishes. While this provides money to maintain historic, monumental, churches with lesser attendance, it deprives local parishioners of control over allocation of their money.
The religions recognized to receive Kirchensteuer money from the German State include: 1.) Dioceses of the Roman Catholic Church; 2.) Member Churches of Evangelical (Lutheran) Churches in Germany; 3.) Jewish Communities; 4.) Dioceses of the Old Catholic Church in Germany; 5.) A few free-standing religious communities; 6.) The Unitarian Community of Free Protestants.
Some religious organizations do not qualify to receive monies collected by the Kirchensteuer. For example, non-traditional sects (Pentacostal or charismatic groups) may not qualify. Small religious groups meeting in individual homes may not qualify for money collected by the Kirchensteuer.
WORST OF ALL: Many young people do not want to pay the 8-9% Kirchensteuer. They often choose to “opt out” by going to their accountant, and filing a notarized tax form that "they do not believe in God."
In this sense, the Kirchensteuer seems to be a financially coercive tool to promote sworn atheism in Germany. I do not believe it to be a moral tax at all.
If we must view the condition of religious liberty in Germany as being rather dismal vis a vis the Kirchensteuer, we Americans can contrast with joy the far greater religious liberty granted to us by the First Amendment of The Constitution of the United States of America.
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Jbrady
Guest
Sorry, but that’s all wrong. It’s not opt-in, and it’s still not easy to opt out.
The government taxes individuals based on whether they appear on lists of church “members” that are prepared by the churches. This is often done on the basis of baptismal records or parentage. It does not matter which box you check on your tax form. You are taxed based on whether the church in question considers you a member, not on whether you consider yourself a member.
Getting off of the church list used to be a horrible, costly and humiliating ordeal. It’s still no walk in the park. You have to travel IN PERSON to the tax office in the capital city of your federal state, during normal business hours, which means that you have to take a day off from work and lose that day’s pay. You cannot do so by mail or at your own local tax office. You still have to pay a fee to opt out: about 40 to 50 US dollars depending on which federal state you live in.
You also have to sign a statement that you relinquish the right to any retroactive claims, even if you had been taxed against your will for years.
That’s the problem.
I believe that everybody how can financially contribute should contribute. It is not to the others faithfull to pay for some others negligence (including mine!) and egoism.
Of course some would ague that faithfull church goers should contribute more or for all for those who just come to church three in a lifetime (baptism, marriage, burial). But…
I think the more just system would be to made all people contribute directly for sacraments such as baptism, marriage and funeral (which is not a sacrament…). As we do in France.Bernoulli:
We considered this as well, but the Synod (for now) decided against it - in order, as @Polak said, not to give people the impression that sacraments have to be paid for, and to metaphorically leave the door open and the lights on for their return.
M
Montrose
Guest
Not in Hamburg where I lived unless they changed the rules.
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Jbrady
Guest
Yes it is in Hamburg, too. To get off of the church rolls you have to apply IN PERSON at the municipal office and pay a fee of 31 Euro.
https://www.imacc.de/kirchenaustritt-wie-sie-aus-der-kirche-austreten/
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Jbrady
Guest
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Montrose
Guest
Frankly, the religious tax is not a lot anyway so not sure why anyone would bother to go through this hassle to not pay it.
C
Cirdan_XII
Guest
I presently live in Switzerland and on my electronic tax form there is a field where I can chose to which church I want my church tax to go (select between Roman Catholic, and the two main protestant churches) and I can also not select any at all in which case no church tax is levied.
I don’t think doing that is the same as apostasy, as I am never actually saying i reject the Church.
I guess in theory I could chose not to pay church tax but give the same money to my diocese in cash.
I don’t think doing that is the same as apostasy, as I am never actually saying i reject the Church.
I guess in theory I could chose not to pay church tax but give the same money to my diocese in cash.
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Jbrady
Guest
In Switzerland, every Canton handles the tax in their own way. A few Cantons don’t have church tax at all. In those Cantons with church tax, the local church is far richer than in those without.
Also, until recently, in order not to pay the church tax, you had to sign a formal act of apostacy to remove yourself from the church roles, at least if you were Catholic. The Church did away with formal apostacy just a few years ago.
Would you be happy about even a penny of your hard earned cash going to a religious group you strongly disagree with, say the Moonies or the Church of Scientology?
And no, it’s not small money were talking about. It’s hundreds of Euro a year or more. About 1600 Euro in my case. Even at my income level, I wouldn’t let that slip through my fingers.
Well, if you have to pay 1600 euros just in church tax, sorry to put the fact, but you are very wealthy. So you can afford to pay it. So I would not complain if I were you, if I wanted to stay decent.
I admit that incomes in Switzerland are very high, as the cost of living.
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Jbrady
Guest
I wouldn’t pay a single penny to a church I don’t belong to. I can’t see how that differs in any way from theft.
And as an American Catholic, I found the whole church tax business dirty and unjust when I lived in Germany. It was a scam, plain and simple. I give a lot more to the church than the church tax requires, but I strongly prefer to give all of it on my terms, as I see fit. Like we do in the States.
And though it is very unlikely at my age that I will ever leave the Church, if I were to, I don’t think anyone has the right to stand in my way or make me jump through hoops to do so.
Why do you said that, if you add after that you are Catholic? So supposedly, you were declared "Catholic " and pay a tax to the Catholic Church?
Your feeling as an American Catgolic is just your cultural feeling. It does not mean that by “essence” a german church tax is immoral. Morality transcend the cultural differences.
As I have already said, to contribute to the church is not charity, but responsability. It is what we are taught by the diocesan tresurer. It also forbid to forget accidentally or not to pay your contribution.
It is noble that someone want to manage his money the way he wishes and think that anyway he would pay more than the minimal require. But sadly, on a global level, it don’t work that way.
There is also the argument above, that the german tax is used to pay more than just parish, but also chaplaincy, ministry, schools, retirement houses, religious hospitals… So more or less social services that would have been paid partly with public money anyway- religious or secular origin.
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Montrose
Guest
If you register as a Catholic it goes to the Catholic Church, nobody else.
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Jbrady
Guest
If you aren’t a Catholic, but the German Catholic Church considers you a Catholic, then you get taxed and the money goes to the Catholic Church. The reason that the Catholic Church considers you a Catholic MIGHT be because you are a foreigner that chose to opt in, like you. However, that is a exceptional case.
Most people, Germans and a good number of foreigners working in Germany, never had a choice about opting in. They were considered Catholics and taxed on the basis of whether they were baptized Catholics as children, either in Germany or in countries that agreed to provide German bishops with access to their baptismal records, especially Poland.
As long as you are on the church rolls, you have to pay. Until a few years ago, getting your name removed from the church rolls was a horribly expensive, difficult and humiliating experience that even most atheists were terrified of going through.
It was even more difficult and humiliating for Polish people. Because of that, the German Church collected billions of Euro that it had no moral right to collect from people who had no moral duty to pay.
And it still does. While getting your name removed from the tax roll is now a lot easier than it used to be, it still isn’t easy and onvenient as it should be. You seem to think it’s as simple as checking a box (which it should be). It’s not.
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Montrose
Guest
It was when I worked in Hamburg, both registering and then when I left the country after three years. I guess it has changed over the years.
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Jbrady
Guest
You (and I) had the opportunity to opt in ONLY because we were foreigners from countries with which the German church has no data sharing arrangement. We were special exceptions to the rule.
Most people who have to pay the tax are Germans or foreigners from countries that do share their records with Germany. They never had a choice about opting in.
Now, if YOU (Montose personally) had continued to live in Germany, and decided to leave the Church at some point, until a few years ago it would have been EXTREMELY difficult for you to get your name off the church tax list. You would have had to travel back to the parish where you were baptized IN PERSON and ask the pastor for an OFFICIAL letter certifying that you have OFFICIALLY renounced the Catholic faith and that you have OFFICIALLY been removed from the baptismal registry of that parish. Good luck with that. Most pastors would have been unsympathetic and uncooperative. Without that letter, you couldn’t be removed from the church rolls.
Even now, you still have to appear at the Stadtsamt in person during normal working hours. Not bad if you are in little Hamburg, but a major hassle for most Germans who have some distance to travel to the capital of their federal state.
And pay a fee. At least you don’t need any letter from a pastor anymore, which is just as good because pastors have been forbidden from writing any letter like that for the past few years.
P
Polak
Guest
Can I just confirm, German Church tax, this applies to any Christian denomination in Germany?
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Jbrady
Guest
No. Just the Catholic Church, the Old Catholics, the very established United Protestant Church (Lutheran and Reformed), and the Unitarian Community. The several Jewish communities are involved in various special arrangements as well.
The Orthodox, by far most protestant groups, and sundry groups like the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not included.
Interesting. What are the reasons for some in and some not?
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