German Church Tax: moral?

[Maximian]

You are right, I misread the German website. It’s an eight percent surcharge on tax paid. So if you pay 40% of gross income in tax, you would pay an additional 3.2% in church tax.

The figure of 6 billion euros or more per year is correct (ie three times the amount China is allegedly contributing)

 

[Cirdan_XII]

There is also the other side of that equation. Frequently, providing (real) religious instruction involves telling people things they don’t want to hear, or which make them very uncomfortable. Christ’s teachings made his contemporaries so disdainful of him that they literally murdered him.

This affects basically any church and any religion even. No priest or preacher wants an empty church. So priests do sometimes say what people want to hear. But I think maybe it is better to still have people come to church so you can at least teach them some things that are right, than lose them totally.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I know in my old parish, many of the parishioners left and became Protestants. Is that a possibility in Germany?

Yes, people switch religions all the time.

 

[Maximian]

But Catholic clergy possess the Truth which they Should die for if necessary. …

 

[Maximian]

Yes but it doesn’t save them for the tax which is then redirected to the Lutherans

 

[Dan_Defender]

My understanding is this Kirchensteuer has been in place in Germany since the 19th century so it is not a new model. I assume people had something similar before so there were no massive protests when it came about by law?

 

[Maximian]

At that time the people had no cause to be dissatisfied with their bishops.

The German bishops conference is dominated by a particularly questionable clique with an agenda which is barely Catholic

 

[Cirdan_XII]

My understanding is this Kirchensteuer has been in place in Germany since the 19th century so it is not a new model. I assume people had something similar before so there were no massive protests when it came about by law?

I understand that previously the Catholic Church had owned a lot of land, which had come into its posession over the years by people bequeathing it to the Church. This land was rented out and the income was a significant part of the Church’s income, which also supported charitable work, schools etc.

At some point in history (not too sure exactly when this happened) the government decided that it wasn’t right for the church to own all that land and decided to massively curtail Church ownership of land in order to permit farmers to own their own land. The Bishops protested and pointed to all the projects and charitable things they were running and said that all this was in danger if they were cut off from their income. The government scratched their head, and said, they have a point there. And thus worked out this Church tax thing as a replacament.

So if anybody wants to scrap the church tax, they need to give back the land first. Or at least pay a one time massive compensation for the value of the land that was taken.

 

[Maximian]

I think you are referring to the arrangements which exist throughout the former Napoleonic empire, which vary from country to country but depend upon the idea that the Church should be subordinated to, but the responsibility of, the state.

 

[Montrose]

The sums are enormous. Individuals must pay at least 8 percent of their entire income. In 2015 the Church received 6 billion euros (6.6 billion dollars) in this way.

This is not correct. The 8% is 8% of income tax. It is not 8% of entire income.
It a person’s income tax was, for example, EUR 10,000 then the religious tax would be EUR 800.

 

[Neithan]

It is a brilliant system for the church. Keep in mind that anyone can remove themselves by declaring that they do not belong to the church.

The “problem” is that the German church has become very wealthy and that tends to corrupt.

1. I don’t think this makes the church beholden to the state. The church governance is utilizing some state bureaucracy to achieve a secular end: financial support. Much like the state sometimes utilizes (and subsidizes) church schools or hospitals (more of historical fact) to achieve secular ends. In the realm of the secular, church and state can work together.
2. This is a problem, but not because the state helps collect church funds; it’s a problem because the collection is so effective it creates a wealthy church. The solution would be to donate more. The German church donates a lot, but it could donate even more.
3. That’s a fair objection, but only applies if the church in fact is subject to the state, and secular trends. There might be a fear of losing the state’s assistance if the church opposes it.
4. I don’t know if it’s legitimate for the congregation to “sanction” clergy. It is a precept of the church that we provide financial support.

 

[new-kirishitan]

Interestingly, the church tax has made the German church richer than any other church, but it also made them deviate from the teachings of the Church. Most British clergy I know of are shaking their heads over the situation in Germany, where the German church appears to be after mammon rather than teachings of God. In order to get more tax money, the German church is very secular and is very liberal in order to appeal to the increasingly secularised society, so they can keep that lucrative source of revenue. And the German bishops are the main pusher behind towards liberal ideologies such as homosexuality, divorce, abortion, ordaining women priests, etc.

I personally find it interesting that when the government gets involved with the churches, they become increasingly liberal and they adopt the way of the world, like what’s happening with the Anglicans, especially the C of E. This secularisation actually prompted some high church traditionalists within the C of E to cross the Tiber and join the RC Church, including some prominent people like Her Majesty’s former chaplain Gavin Ashenden, HRH Duchess of Kent, and Lord Nicholas Windsor.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Interestingly, the church tax has made the German church richer than any other church, but it also made them deviate from the teachings of the Church.

I’m not sure if it is that simple.

Germany is maybe one of the most liberal and modernist countries in Europe. There are hardly any true conservatives left. No major newsppaer, no TV network, and virtually no academics support conservative talking points and more. Even people calling themselves conservatives have at best lukewarm opinions and would not count as conservative in the USA for example. There has been a total meltdown of conservative and traditionalist values, with the exception of maybe some parts of Bavaria.

The clergy are recruited from the people and thus reflect the opinions of the people.

I don’t think this has to do with church tax but with the overall situation in Germany.

 

[Neithan]

There has been a total meltdown of conservative and traditionalist values, with the exception of maybe some parts of Bavaria.

That can’t be true when the right-wing Alternative fuer Deutschland is the third largest party in the Bundestag, and their strongest representation is in Saxony.

 

[Anicette]

it is not a question of morality.

It is NOT immoral to contribute to our Church. It is even a mandate. Not a question of charity, but responsability.

The german system is very organized. Every person, unless she is with no religion, has to pay her tax, and the State organized it.

The good point is that the german Church has been the richest of the world (before the US Church become the 1st). the neagtive point is that they lost their missionary dimension, and are adopting a very liberal attitude with contestation instead of being focus more on spiritual life.

 

[Anicette]

This is not correct. The 8% is 8% of income tax. It is not 8% of entire income.

Sees more correct. In France for eg, we are advise by the Church to give 1 to 2 % of our annual income.

It a person’s income tax was, for example, EUR 10,000 then the religious tax would be EUR 800.

Your exemple don’t seem very realistic.I am not sure of the standard of economical living in Germany, but your exemple is too high to be an annual tax. 10,000 € is closer to a low annual income than the average household tax.

 

[Montrose]

Your exemple don’t seems very realistic. i am not sure if the standard of economical living in Germany, but your exemple is too high to be an annual tax. 10,000 € is closer to a low annual income than the average household tax.

I just picked an easy number out of the air to illustrate the point. I didn’t pick a number for accuracy.
The point is that religious tax is NOT 8% of entire income. It is 8% of whatever income tax you pay. I worked in Germany for three years and paid the religious tax.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

That can’t be true when the right-wing Alternative fuer Deutschland is the third largest party in the Bundestag, and their strongest representation is in Saxony.

As a party, I would say the Alternative fuer Deutschland is as a whole not conservative although there is a conservative wing to the party. Also, the Alternative fuer Deutschland does not have any prominent catholic members as far as I know (Saxony being a traditional Lutheran heartland, but more atheistic nowdays in the wake of communism). The party is not on speaking terms with the Catholic bishops, in fact many of them openly speak out against the party. That said, I do know of indivdual priests who are more open towards them, but are afraid to mention the fact publically. But I can’t see that leading to a change in direction or policy of the Church.

 

[TK421]

IMO I don’t think it’s a good model for other countries to follow and the greater financial contributions don’t appear to have translated to benefits, but a tax isn’t immoral. The Church (both the dioceses in Germany and the authority in Rome) would have a grave obligation to do something about it if it was immoral.

 

[Polak]

1ke:

I don’t see evidence of that in Germany.

Are you kidding!!!

HAHAHAHAHA!

Germany has been going along with secular trends for at least the past 50 years.

You beat me to it.