German Church Tax: moral?

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Jbrady said:
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Glennon_P:
What are the reasons for some in and some not?
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History and culture. It goes back to the early 1800s.
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Are you sure?
The unification of Germany as a Nation State is from 1871. So this Church tax system existed before? And where?

to add more context, Protestant and Catholic Churches are the two main religious denominations in Germany, around the same numbers of faithfull.
The others christian denominations, the muslins are in the minority or more recent elements.

To compare, Alsace and Moselle since his ratachment to France after WWI, keeps her German religious system. That’s mean the ministers of the Protestant, Catholic and Jewish cults are paid by the State. But not the imans, because it was not existed before the reunification.
The Catechism is offer directly in the public (=State) schools. University offers theology cursus and canonical licences.
The have more public holiday than in France, such as Holy Friday.
The Concordat with the Holy See still remains in Alsace-Moselle.
 
Anicette said:
Are you sure?
The unification of Germany as a Nation State is from 1871. So this Church tax system existed before? And where?
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Very sure. It goes back to the final days of the Holy Roman Empire, to the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss of February 25, 1803. This was the last significant law passed in the Empire before it was dissolved in 1806.
 
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Thanks you.

And what happened to the Church tax while the Empire was dissolved, between 1803 and…maybe 1871 (or more?)
 
Anicette said:
And what happened to the Church tax while the Empire was dissolved, between 1803 and…maybe 1871 (or more?)
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It was reinstated after the Napoleonic Wars by some of the various successor states: Oldenburg, Westfalia, etc, and eventually spread to the rest after reunification. Till today, it is administered by the individual Bundeslaender, not by the Federal government, and differs somewhat from Bundesland to Bundesland.
 
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I think it’s immoral for the state to tax people in order for them to practice a religion.

I would not object if the state were to tax ALL citizens an extra N percent, or charge it in some way commensurate with the person’s income, and then allow people to designate the tax either for support of a church and related institutions, or not designate it in which case the state would use it to support non-religious charitable/ humanitarian institutions.

But I do not agree with charging the tax only upon those who wish to practice a religion.

Nor do I think it is moral to deny sacraments to persons who did not pay church tax, any more than it would be moral to deny them to a person who did not contribute X perrcentage or X amount to his church.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I would not object if the state were to tax ALL citizens an extra N percent, and then allow people to designate the tax either for support of a church and related institutions, or not designate it in which case the state would use it to support non-religious charitable/ humanitarian institutions.
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It is not the case?
 
Anicette said:
It is not the case?
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No. Only those who appear on the tax rolls of the approved religious groups pay the tax. All others do not. That is why more than half a million Germans last year requested that their names be removed from church rolls, about half of those being Catholic. Many of them were only nominally or culturally Catholic.
 
Wonderfull these people who made a public apostasy in order to pay less taxes (a story of money, they prefer to die without a funeral at Church and pay less). That’s very sad.
 
Jbrady said:
No. Just the Catholic Church, the Old Catholics, the very established United Protestant Church (Lutheran and Reformed), and the Unitarian Community. The several Jewish communities are involved in various special arrangements as well.

The Orthodox, by far most protestant groups, and sundry groups like the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not included.
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It applies to Catholics, Protestants, and Jews.
 
Montrose said:
It applies to Catholics, Protestants, and Jews.
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Not all Protestants. Just those who belong to the EKD, a union of twenty or so Lutheran, Reformed or regional churches. This group represents the majority of Protestants in Germany. Or to the smaller Unitarian Union of Free Protestants.

Protestants who do not belong to these organizations do not pay the tax. Like Pentecostals and independent Protestant churches of all stripes.

Also, the Old Catholics are included in the program.
 
We would have benefit to have German involved in the thread. Not only foreigners and people who lived in Germany as residents.

Some have tell me that it is a pride for German people to pay the Church tax. It is possible that many German Christians do not hold your dislike of their tax.
 
Jbrady said:
The Orthodox, by far most protestant groups, and sundry groups like the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not included.
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I think it makes sense. For a large country like Germany to include all kinds of denominations would be unmanageable.
 
Anicette said:
the more just system would be to made all people contribute directly
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The more just system would be for the church to organise its own voluntary collections, like everywhere else.
 
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new-kirishitan said:
I personally find it interesting that when the government gets involved with the churches, they become increasingly liberal and they adopt the way of the world, like what’s happening with the Anglicans, especially the C of E.
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I think it’s a little different. Government interference in church affairs, even if intended to be supportive, means that the Church will bend towards the government’s will. Which is fine if it happens to be a Catholic government, but governments come and go.

Look at Spain: forty years of privileged treatment under Franco has led to Spain now becoming a hotbed of church liberalism.

The CofE is a different case. It became more and more liberal after Parliament surrendered its powers to the General Synod, which activists found it easy to pack.
 
Why should I have to take time off of work as well as pay a part of a day’s wages because of a ceremony that happened to me when I was a baby?
 
Montrose said:
Why ask me that? Are you a German living in Germany?
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I’m speaking for those in Germany who were forced to opt out, not because of any choices they made but choices made for them, It was in response to you stating “Frankly, the religious tax is not a lot anyway so not sure why anyone would bother to go through this hassle to not pay it.” You would not want to spend even a small amount of money to support an organization you are not in favor of and would not be fair to waste time or money to keep what is rightfully yours and not that organization’s.
 
On another thread it is reported that 30 percent of Germans registered as Catholics are expecting to deregister soon.
 
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