Getting men back to Mass

[Cat]

You have a point, certainly not invalid. However, the poster specifically said that men would apply to the positions, but would never be considered. Furthermore, I don’t know of many parishes that can afford to pay for seven or eight “coordinator” positions, even if they are not paid well. Perhaps most parishes can afford to pay one music director one modest wage, and wealthier parishes perhaps one or two more, but unless this is a major cathedral or something, I can’t see a parish having eight people in what are essentially dispensable luxury positions for an average parish. (Yes, I think eight “coordinator” posititions are probably dispensable luxuries for the vast majority of parishes.)

I think most men don’t want anything to do with it because they are disinclined to fight about silly things like hymn choices (especially when the Church gives us a set of music for every single Mass in the Missal and otherwise), and would rather spend their time at the KofC or, more usually, on the couch. Now, not all women–certainly not!–are like this. But when that becomes part of a parish’s way of doing things, it is near impossible to get rid of it, and it will always turn men, at least men, off from wanting to volunteer.

Our parish has eight “coordinator” positions. We used to have more, but the parish did some streamlining to be better financial stewards.

Two are held by men, and the other six by women. We are a fairly wealthy parish, and these positions are not luxuries, but are absolutely necessary to maintain the many various ministries and outreaches of the parish. There are too many huge, successful Evangelical Protestant churches within easy driving distance of our parish, and there are plenty of “cafeteria Catholics” who are willing and ready to walk away from the parish if there isn’t a good youth ministry, or a great religious education program, or a parish budget that is well-managed. Once Catholics walk away, they don’t always come back, and they are at risk of hell. We don’t want to lose anyone.

Besides, the people of our parish enjoy having a “parish life,” and getting involved in many different activities, ministries, charitable endeavors, prayer circles, children’s activities, youth groups, etc. It’s awesome!

Our church staff works very hard and they earn their salaries. We greatly appreciate everything they do. I’m sure the priests especially appreciate them, because they don’t have to worry about planning the parish picnic, or putting together a series of Bible studies for different ages, or hiring someone to tune the organ.

A few weeks ago, our parish offered VBS, and it was planned and managed by the Family Life Coordinator in our parish. How wonderful to have a paid professional doing the work of planning the VBS! I worked with VBS for over 30 years before becoming Catholic, and for many of those years, I was in charge of VBS, and it was hard work to do as a volunteer. I think my family got the short shrift during those years, because I spent so much time getting VBS ready that I didn’t have time for things like grocery shopping, laundry, and cooking.

The poster said that men apply for the positions, but “they would never be considered.” How does he know that? Does the priest actually tell him, “We would never consider a man for these positions?” I seriously doubt it. Perhaps it’s a rumor that many in the parish believe, but if I were that poster, I would be really careful about believing this.

I’m still willing to bet that when men learn the salaries for the coordinator positions, they regretfully have to say “no,” especially if they have families to support. Or perhaps when they learn what the job involves and read the job description, they realize that they and the position are not well-matched.

And YoungTradCath, I’m really surprised to hear you talk about “silly things like fighting over hymn choices,” and men preferring to hang out with the K of C, or on the couch. These are some pretty negative stereotypes. Perhaps you wrote that paragraph in a hurry and it didn’t come out well, but I’m really surprised because you usually put a lot of thought into your posts. Both male and female musicians enjoy planning out the liturgical music for the Masses–this isn’t a male or female thing, it’s a Music Director thing!

And even though you are more than ready to dump the hymns, many parishes are not, and it’s the Music Director’s job to get to know his parish, get a feeling for what the people are willing to tolerate, what they enjoy, and what will drive them away from the Mass–and then sublimate his/her ego and do what is best for the parish within the boundaries set by the Church and the preferences of the pastor. This is a hard job, and many Music Directors face a lot of criticism on all sides no matter what choices they make about the liturgical music. At the same time, even though many people are ready to criticize, they are not ready to step up and say, “I’ll be happy to help” or “I’ll be happy to pay for the hymnals that I think we should use.”

 

[clem456]

I’m not trying to discount what you’re saying but here’s how it would go in my parish if we actually had a mission.

It would be announced. The same 30-40 people who attended ALL parish activities (largely the liturgical insiders) would attend and that would be it. Not only would they be the only people there, they are the very people that are disliked by those of us in the pews.

Ouch.
There’s only one question you can do anything about:
Would YOU go?
If you would go, maybe others you know would also go.

 

[zab]

I’m not trying to discount what you’re saying but here’s how it would go in my parish if we actually had a mission.

It would be announced. The same 30-40 people who attended ALL parish activities (largely the liturgical insiders) would attend and that would be it. Not only would they be the only people there, they are the very people that are disliked by those of us in the pews.

You haven’t heard the mission priest talk yet!

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not trying to discount what you’re saying but here’s how it would go in my parish if we actually had a mission.

It would be announced. The same 30-40 people who attended ALL parish activities (largely the liturgical insiders) would attend and that would be it. Not only would they be the only people there, they are the very people that are disliked by those of us in the pews.

Oh, gosh. I’m sorry about the state of your parish. That is very sad. I don’t know the size of your parish, but my father and I were talking about the sad state of one of the dioceses we frequent at our rural property. The parishes were small, mostly farming communities and were really thriving. Practically everyone would be involved - men and women AND the children. All of the parish community activities were like going back in time a 100 years earlier. It was almost surreal sometimes. Then they got this bishop (who is now gone) and just basically ripped up all of these parishes and the communities that went with them. The pastors of these parishes fought hard with their congregations to keep them open. They knew the reasons for closing so many up were hogwash. It was one of the saddest and tragic transformations I have ever seen in the three parishes we frequented up there. What were once vibrant parishes, which supported themselves without the need of diocesan help either with their own donations and mostly volunteer, they are now mostly empty. Communities whose families have been together since the 1800s when their ancestors immigrated to this country were now dissipated. I never see any of these people I grew up with now and have to travel a half hour to 45 minutes to attend mass whenever I’m up there.

Long story short, my father was surmising that the creation of these huge churches have really hurt church community and the desire to be a part of the activities. He enjoyed being a part of the community activities when we were up there. I’m sure there were cliques, but because of the size and how closely related everyone was either genetically or how everyone interacted with each other outside of the parish as farmers and such, the cliques really couldn’t get much “power”. Granted, both my father and I are introverts, so large communities are big turn-offs to us. It’s one of the reasons why our family owns property in the middle of no where. lol!

 

[YoungTradCath]

And YoungTradCath, I’m really surprised to hear you talk about “silly things like fighting over hymn choices,” and men preferring to hang out with the K of C, or on the couch. These are some pretty negative stereotypes. Perhaps you wrote that paragraph in a hurry and it didn’t come out well, but I’m really surprised because you usually put a lot of thought into your posts. Both male and female musicians enjoy planning out the liturgical music for the Masses–this isn’t a male or female thing, it’s a Music Director thing!

And even though you are more than ready to dump the hymns, many parishes are not…

When it becomes a catty argument–if it becomes a catty argument, which it does in some cases–men are not going to stick around for it. That is all I meant.

And no, I don’t want to “dump the hymns.” I’ve said many times that I think hymns have a place even in liturgical settings, primarily and especially, perhaps exclusively if you really want my opinion, in the procession and recession, because that is where they tend to work well universally, as opposed to say the Offertory which, oftentimes, few people at all sing. Which is why I think the Gregorian pieces/Propers work very well in places like the the Offertory and Communion, as well as the Introit (entrance to the altar), where often the congregational singing is perhaps a quarter of what it is at the procession and recession, but that’s another thread…

 

[waanju]

For my 17 year old brother, it’s the music and “softness” of homilies, but it’s also that ALL religious ed stuff at the parish is headed by women being assisted by teenage girls, and priests who are, I won’t say feminine, but not-very-masculine. Basically, he thinks that a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women (nothing against middle aged women.) He goes to Mass “even though it’s torture with all the dumb, hugging people and the bad music, because (he knows) it’s (his) duty and because God has commanded it.”
My brother is one of the most devout young men I know, but even he has to drag himself to Mass and “offer it up”.

 

[Urn]

Ouch.
There’s only one question you can do anything about:
Would YOU go?
If you would go, maybe others you know would also go.

It would depend on the outline of the mission and who was presenting it. If it was something that I really wanted to take part in, I would breath deep and ask for the grace to go.

I really don’t like many that make up this group, nor do others in my parish it seems. That’s nothing to boast about, it’s actually quite sad. But to make an effort to be in a “good” setting in order to absorb some “good” material only to be around such people is very incongruent to say the least.

 

[Urn]

Oh, gosh. I’m sorry about the state of your parish. That is very sad. I don’t know the size of your parish, but my father and I were talking about the sad state of one of the dioceses we frequent at our rural property. The parishes were small, mostly farming communities and were really thriving. Practically everyone would be involved - men and women AND the children. All of the parish community activities were like going back in time a 100 years earlier. It was almost surreal sometimes. Then they got this bishop (who is now gone) and just basically ripped up all of these parishes and the communities that went with them. The pastors of these parishes fought hard with their congregations to keep them open. They knew the reasons for closing so many up were hogwash. It was one of the saddest and tragic transformations I have ever seen in the three parishes we frequented up there. What were once vibrant parishes, which supported themselves without the need of diocesan help either with their own donations and mostly volunteer, they are now mostly empty. Communities whose families have been together since the 1800s when their ancestors immigrated to this country were now dissipated. I never see any of these people I grew up with now and have to travel a half hour to 45 minutes to attend mass whenever I’m up there.

Long story short, my father was surmising that the creation of these huge churches have really hurt church community and the desire to be a part of the activities. He enjoyed being a part of the community activities when we were up there. I’m sure there were cliques, but because of the size and how closely related everyone was either genetically or how everyone interacted with each other outside of the parish as farmers and such, the cliques really couldn’t get much “power”. Granted, both my father and I are introverts, so large communities are big turn-offs to us. It’s one of the reasons why our family owns property in the middle of no where. lol!

Your comments made me winch. I am very sorry. I also agree, giant parishes have done a real number on church community. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that that’s true but they certainly are “efficient.”

My parish is large (but getting smaller all the time) and has been around a long time. Many of the parishioners are what I would call “ticket-punching survivors.” They have been treated with indifference or negativity for a very long time and they have hardened because of that treatment. They fulfill their Sunday obligations but that’s it and who can blame them? Ask them to do something and they’ll be polite as they say “no.”

That bishop you describe illustrates a real problem in the Church. If a bad pastor or bishop comes a long, both can do huge damage before they are replaced – if they are ever replaced. Somehow that needs to be fixed or the Church will continue to hemorrhage members.

 

[Urn]

For my 17 year old brother, it’s the music and “softness” of homilies, but it’s also that ALL religious ed stuff at the parish is headed by women being assisted by teenage girls, and priests who are, I won’t say feminine, but not-very-masculine. Basically, he thinks that a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women (nothing against middle aged women.) He goes to Mass “even though it’s torture with all the dumb, hugging people and the bad music, because (he knows) it’s (his) duty and because God has commanded it.”
My brother is one of the most devout young men I know, but even he has to drag himself to Mass and “offer it up”.

A M E N.

Your brother is wise beyond his years!

 

[Elizabeth502]

For my 17 year old brother, it’s the music and “softness” of homilies, but it’s also that ALL religious ed stuff at the parish is headed by women being assisted by teenage girls, and priests who are, I won’t say feminine, but not-very-masculine. Basically, he thinks that a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women (nothing against middle aged women.) He goes to Mass "even though it’s torture with all the dumb, hugging people and the bad music, because (he knows) it’s (his) duty and because God has commanded it."
My brother is one of the most devout young men I know, but even he has to drag himself to Mass and “offer it up”.

About 30 cheers for your brother, and he is a Poster Child for what’s wrong with too many modernist Masses. It’s absurd what he has to endure. I agree with him.

Yes, there are definitely many exceptions to such OF Masses, but not to the point where those exceptions outweigh the norm. And that is the problem. And it is a problem with a solution for the willing.

 

[Urn]

About 30 cheers for your brother, and he is a Poster Child for what’s wrong with too many modernist Masses. It’s absurd what he has to endure. I agree with him.

Yes, there are definitely many exceptions to such OF Masses, but not to the point where those exceptions outweigh the norm. And that is the problem. And it is a problem with a solution for the willing.

This has nothing to do with “modernism.” Nothing at all. It has to do with maintaining beauty and reverence. It has to do with common courtesy. Last but not least, it has to do with not being afraid to be a man.

That young man REALLY hit on something with his comment “a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women.” The problem is that it’s so hugely non-PC (despite being very true) that I don’t think it could even be brought up for discussion in most parishes.

A couple of years ago I was leaving Mass and my pastor asked me if I was going to breakfast? I said “No, I’m going skeet shooting. Wanna go?” He turned white on the spot. It was embarrassing. ZERO male energy.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This has nothing to do with “modernism.”.

No, I’m sorry, you’re wrong about that. This has been discussed on other threads: the difference between modern and the characteristics of modernism, which is quite different. You’re new here. If you happened to have observed/read other conversations, it would be apparent the context I am using.

What the young man is describing is quite characteristic of the majority of modernistic parishes. That is actually (and unfortunately) a fact. Not modern parishes. Please learn the difference.

And again, I will repeat what I said in my earlier post, just to clarify one aspect of what modernism has come to result in, which includes the portion I bolded earlier:

For my 17 year old brother, it’s the music and “softness” of homilies, but it’s also that ALL religious ed stuff at the parish is headed by women being assisted by teenage girls, and priests who are, I won’t say feminine, but not-very-masculine. Basically, he thinks that a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women (nothing against middle aged women.) ***He goes to Mass ***“even though it’s torture with all the dumb, hugging people and the bad music, because (he knows) it’s (his) duty and because God has commanded it.”
My brother is one of the most devout young men I know, but even he has to drag himself to Mass and “offer it up”.

About 30 cheers for your brother, and he is a Poster Child for what’s wrong with too many modernist Masses. It’s absurd what he has to endure. I agree with him.

Yes, there are definitely many exceptions to such OF Masses, but not to the point where those exceptions outweigh the norm. And that is the problem. And it is a problem with a solution for the willing.

 

[josh987654321]

For my 17 year old brother, it’s the music and “softness” of homilies, but it’s also that ALL religious ed stuff at the parish is headed by women being assisted by teenage girls, and priests who are, I won’t say feminine, but not-very-masculine. Basically, he thinks that a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women (nothing against middle aged women.) He goes to Mass “even though it’s torture with all the dumb, hugging people and the bad music, because (he knows) it’s (his) duty and because God has commanded it.”
My brother is one of the most devout young men I know, but even he has to drag himself to Mass and "offer it up."

:dts:

Lets look at this the other way around shall we?

Say your friend spends time with you (even though it’s torture because of the others you hang out with) because your friend knows it’s his/her duty and because your parents commanded it."

Than I might say, “This friend is one of the most loyal I know, but even he has to drag himself to spend time with you.”

What would you think of such a friend? Yet when it’s Christ it’s a different story?

Christ gives us that enourmous gift of the Holy Eucharist at every mass and you have the hide to say “hes the most devout young man I know” and say “he has to drag himself to mass and offer it up.” I mean, haven forbid he be thankful for such an enourmous gift.

If you think going to mass is doing Christ a favor, you got it all backwards my friend.

Maybe it’s just me, but this whole premise sounds like we’re somehow just trying to come up with gimmicks to draw men back to Church. If you have to offer excuses such as; what kind of hymns and music are being offered, better sermons, etc. etc. etc., just to get you to come to Mass, then maybe there are bigger issues that you have going on with your faith than just how Mass is being celebrated.

You have to have that passion for the Faith burning with fire inside you. To me, if you don’t have a deep, deep passion for Christ in your heart beforehand, then even if you do attend Mass, you will likely be just paying lip service and not much more. And this I speak from experience!…“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.” Isaiah 29:13

Peace, Mark

These books will kindle that fire.

Books on the Eucharist
The Holy Mass - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf
Holy Hour - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HH-Reg.pdf
In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf

Books on Spiritual Testimonies & Devotions
Divine Providence - loveandmercy.org/Eng-DP-Reg.pdf
My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters - loveandmercy.org/Eng-MBC-Reg.pdf
Praying the Rosary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-PR-Reg.pdf
The Visible Face of the Invisible God - loveandmercy.org/Eng-VF-Reg.pdf

Books on the Passion
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

For more, please go here FrStevenJones - youshallbelieve.com/

It is all free, online.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Cat]

For my 17 year old brother, it’s the music and “softness” of homilies, but it’s also that ALL religious ed stuff at the parish is headed by women being assisted by teenage girls, and priests who are, I won’t say feminine, but not-very-masculine. Basically, he thinks that a certain male energy is missing, replaced by a bunch of middle aged women (nothing against middle aged women.) He goes to Mass “even though it’s torture with all the dumb, hugging people and the bad music, because (he knows) it’s (his) duty and because God has commanded it.”
My brother is one of the most devout young men I know, but even he has to drag himself to Mass and “offer it up”.

Why don’t the men and boys volunteer? Are the women fighting them off with sticks?

This excuse is just that–an excuse. I don’t buy the explanation that “politics” bars men from serving in parish leadership roles.

I still suspect it has to do with money issues (men can’t afford to work in low-paying positions).

But if men refuse to step up and take the positions that are volunteer positions or low-paying (perhaps they can work them as part-time jobs as many women do–there are a lot of women who work a job, and then come home and work a second job caring for their home and family), then men really have no right to complain about missing “male energy.” The energy is missing because the men aren’t there.

And here’s another suggestion for men who believe their parish has been hijacked by women–men, step up and give larger tithes and offerings and designate those monies to be used specifically for increasing the salaries of the various paid leadership positions in your parish . Then more men should be able to accept these positions because they will be able to earn enough money to support their families.

Men, I’m a woman, and this discussion tangent sounds like male whining to me. If women have taken over, then men need to step up and do whatever needs to be done. It’s been my personal experience in all walks of life–home, school, on-the-job, politics, community, and church–that the reason women take over is that men have dropped out and refuse to do the work, and SOMEONE has to do it! Think about that.

But again, in support of men, I honestly think that most men don’t volunteer for church leadership roles because they are already working long, hard hours to earn enough money to support their families, and they don’t accept the paid positions in their parish because the salaries are too low.

 

[josh987654321]

I think that Mark and Josh make good points. A pastor can make some changes to the liturgy, but if a man (or woman) doesn’t have a passion for Christ that permeates their life, how likely are they to stay, or to stay for the right reasons? Do we want to attract lots of men, most of whom may suffer from lukewarmness, who don’t know much about the faith, and have no interest in learning more (and who will be complained about on CAF)? Or do we want to attract men who love God with all their heart, soul, strength and mind, even if there are fewer of them?

Thank you, I absolutely agree with you Catholic_Wife :clapping:

We conform to Christ, not the other way around and nobody should ever attend mass thinking they are doing Christ a favor (there not, it’s Christ that is giving us that enourmous gift by feeding us with his body, blood, soul and divinity).

I hope that any extracurricular activity that people persue within the Church, is done for Christ’s sake, not for themselves, not so they will shine, but for Christ to shine.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Elizabeth502]

Men, I’m a woman, and this discussion tangent sounds like male whining to me.

Out of context, it could be seen that way, but when a parent reports that an otherwise fervent 17-year-old has to drag himself to Mass, it confirms the reality of the way the male psyche responds, and to what he best responds. It’s not about pleasing men or satisfying certain “terms” or requirements, as a condition of their attendance. It’s a logical dynamic:

Catholic men, like Catholic women, should go to Mass out of burning desire to do so.
The style of Masses, dynamics of parish governance, and absence of visible male energy in many parishes discourages male participation, which radically reduces male identification with the whole event.
It is difficult to ask any segment to continue a fervent commitment to Mass when so many points of identification are missing.

Josh and Mark, you may be different, and you also may be able to override more easily what other men cannot, or you may be blessed with a more virile parish, shall we say. This discussion reminds me of the Altar Girl threads where this very topic of visual & concrete reference points (as well as group identification) came up. Anyone who has taught boys for any length of time has the opportunity to observe what they do and don’t respond to. This thread is not about what whether men should steel themselves against an impulse, or overcome their internal apathy, but how to “get men back to Mass.” That’s the question Father is asking.

He’s talking about practical realities, that’s all.

And let me just say from a woman’s point of view that the discussion of what appeals to men little and what appeals to them more (at Mass, and in parishes) is also true for me. There’s something weird about parishes dominated by women and by a female “message,” where the priest seems to play a subordinate role, and Masses where men are virtually absent – which is unfortunately too many of them. I get much more out of Mass and out of a parish when those factors that also appeal to men are abundant.

 

[Greg_N]

Why don’t the men and boys volunteer? Are the women fighting them off with sticks?

This excuse is just that–an excuse. I don’t buy the explanation that “politics” bars men from serving in parish leadership roles.

Watch this.

Men, I’m a woman, and this discussion tangent sounds like male whining to me. If women have taken over, then men need to step up and do whatever needs to be done. It’s been my personal experience in all walks of life–home, school, on-the-job, politics, community, and church–that the reason women take over is that men have dropped out and refuse to do the work, and SOMEONE has to do it! Think about that.

I agree, us dudes need to step our game up, but you have to understand the huge amount of resistance we receive from certain females once we attempt to relieve them of their “duties”. When a male is confronted with such a female, we tend to relent by nature; its biology.
To avoid such confrontation I believe we need both priests who actively seek males to fulfil these roles rather than women (call it discrimination, I don’t care), or women who would be more than happy to allow a man to replace her.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This:

its biology.

and this:

To avoid such confrontation I believe we need both priests who actively seek males to fulfil these roles rather than women (call it discrimination, I don’t care), or women who would be more than happy to allow a man to replace her.

(Hi, Greg. )

 

[Greg_N]

^
This chick has the right idea

(Hi Elizabeth )

 

[FrStevenJones]

And let me just say from a woman’s point of view that the discussion of what appeals to men little and what appeals to them more (at Mass, and in parishes) is also true for me. There’s something weird about parishes dominated by women and by a female “message,” where the priest seems to play a subordinate role, and Masses where men are virtually absent – which is unfortunately too many of them. I get much more out of Mass and out of a parish when those factors that also appeal to men are abundant.

This is a key point. Thanks for putting your finger on it!

From my perspective, it comes down to “Who is Jesus Christ”? He’s a strong, virile presence. That needs to be reflected in His liturgy and in all aspects of parish life. It’s really just that simple.

Men and women both have roles: masculinity and femininity should both be embraced in God’s plan. But if we turn Christ’s liturgy into something that is not virile and strong, then we’ve missed the boat, and both sexes sense that!

The priest must lead the parish. It starts with him. It’s not really the fault of the men, or the fault of the women. Father has got to order the house, or the disorder of the human condition will reign in the parish, not the spirit of Christ!