Gingrich Thread

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Please discuss the issues, not each other
 
ishii
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There are those times when both candidates are such that one needs as a matter of principle to vote for neither. I could do that. I simply don't base all my political decisions on the abortion question. 

 As one example, that recent case at St, Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, as I recall. The doctors warned that if the pregnancy were continued, both the mother and baby would die. A nun, you may remember, was serving on the hospital ethics committee and she was among those who approved the medical procedure. The mother's life was saved, the best news possible apparently for the husband and their four young children.

 Now, the Bishop excommunicated the nun and declared that the hospital no longer was a Catholic hospital. I presume you think the Bishop was right, that the mother should have sacrificed her life if necessary even if the baby also would likely die. I personally am deeply sympthetic to the husband and children, to the doctors, and to the nun - not to the Bishop! I presume that makes me bad! I think the other decision would have been outrageous. When the Church takes such an inflexible position, seemingly unconcerned about the health of the mother, about a grieving husband and four motherless children - that Church is cold and callous. That's my opinion. I'm sure you disagree.

 As I probably have said before, I get sick and tired of those who always yell 'murder' when an abortion is performed but seem to have no trouble cheering on killing thousands of babies elsewhere in the world, many still in the womb, with bombs and bombers. I remember one devoted Catholic couple who followed the Church's policy. The mother and baby died and the father and the children came to despise the Catholic Church and became Episcopalians. Perhaps their reaction was extreme but I understand why they had it.

 The most common abortion in the world is called the miscarriage. God apparently permits them, probably because something is wrong with the pregnancy. I am generally opposed to abortion, but there are those few exceptions when it is the lesser of evils. In such cases I don't want the state deciding what to do. Such hard decisions are to be made by the mother and her family and their medical professionals. I don't worry that much about the babies because I'm sure they spend time on the lap pf Jesus, now that the Church has said that Limbo is just one possible theological theory. Amazing how that changed since I was a child and people rushed to have their babies baptized to avoid the risk of Limbo.

  This whole problem is accentuated because the Church maintains a condemnatory policy on birth control. I'm sure many abortions are performed, often under terrible conditions, because birth control devices are not legal or available. Since as many as 90% of American Catholic couples apparently use artificial birth control when they feel their families are the size they want, it only alienates those who would be faithful from the Church. And what do most celibate Bishops and priests know about married life anyway? 

  Have I answered your question? I have voted third party before and will not hesitate to do so again. With me - I repeat - it's a matter of principle when I feel that neither candidate is fit to serve as president. Maybe it's time that the USA had a third party?

 God bless you and especially those women who are facing crisis pregnancies. May the Lord give them guidance and help the rest of us to be gentle when we condemn their decisions..
I will always make a candidates stance on abortion a first consideration. If not completely
pro-life, then the candidate who is closest to that position.

The above examples that you site are in the very, very minority. One of my grandchildren
was given a dire prognosis due to his mother receiving some x-rays before she knew she
was pregnant. However, dispite the doctors’ predictions, he was a healthy baby. What a
crime it would have been if he had been aborted.
As for miscarriages, they are not abortions. The body itself is “prepared” for the miscarriage, the hormones start to drop, etc. In an abortion, the hormones are left after
the abortion and the woman’s body absorbs them in different ways, sometimes causing
problems down the road. (Their is a link between abortion and breast cancer and this
reaction may be one of them.) The problem in a “crisis” pregnancies ending in abortions has many other ramifications that may be longer lasting that giving birth and putting the
baby up for adoption.
The Catholic Church has much wisdom in her teachings and, in the end, will always seek
the salvation of souls. Just research someday and you will see that this is true.

Sorry to have taken this off-topic.
 
ishii
Code:
There are those times when both candidates are such that one needs as a matter of principle to vote for neither. I could do that. I simply don't base all my political decisions on the abortion question. 

 As one example, that recent case at St, Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, as I recall. The doctors warned that if the pregnancy were continued, both the mother and baby would die. A nun, you may remember, was serving on the hospital ethics committee and she was among those who approved the medical procedure. The mother's life was saved, the best news possible apparently for the husband and their four young children.

 Now, the Bishop excommunicated the nun and declared that the hospital no longer was a Catholic hospital. I presume you think the Bishop was right, that the mother should have sacrificed her life if necessary even if the baby also would likely die. I personally am deeply sympthetic to the husband and children, to the doctors, and to the nun - not to the Bishop! I presume that makes me bad! I think the other decision would have been outrageous. When the Church takes such an inflexible position, seemingly unconcerned about the health of the mother, about a grieving husband and four motherless children - that Church is cold and callous. That's my opinion. I'm sure you disagree.

 As I probably have said before, I get sick and tired of those who always yell 'murder' when an abortion is performed but seem to have no trouble cheering on killing thousands of babies elsewhere in the world, many still in the womb, with bombs and bombers. I remember one devoted Catholic couple who followed the Church's policy. The mother and baby died and the father and the children came to despise the Catholic Church and became Episcopalians. Perhaps their reaction was extreme but I understand why they had it.

 The most common abortion in the world is called the miscarriage. God apparently permits them, probably because something is wrong with the pregnancy. I am generally opposed to abortion, but there are those few exceptions when it is the lesser of evils. In such cases I don't want the state deciding what to do. Such hard decisions are to be made by the mother and her family and their medical professionals. I don't worry that much about the babies because I'm sure they spend time on the lap pf Jesus, now that the Church has said that Limbo is just one possible theological theory. Amazing how that changed since I was a child and people rushed to have their babies baptized to avoid the risk of Limbo.

  This whole problem is accentuated because the Church maintains a condemnatory policy on birth control. I'm sure many abortions are performed, often under terrible conditions, because birth control devices are not legal or available. Since as many as 90% of American Catholic couples apparently use artificial birth control when they feel their families are the size they want, it only alienates those who would be faithful from the Church. And what do most celibate Bishops and priests know about married life anyway? 

  Have I answered your question? I have voted third party before and will not hesitate to do so again. With me - I repeat - it's a matter of principle when I feel that neither candidate is fit to serve as president. Maybe it's time that the USA had a third party?

 God bless you and especially those women who are facing crisis pregnancies. May the Lord give them guidance and help the rest of us to be gentle when we condemn their decisions..
What does limbo and war have to do with the question I posed? So in other words, yes. You would forego the opportunity of saving many unborn lives by allowing states to pass laws against abortions if they want - you would give up that chance? You think Newt Gingrich’s sins are worse than the sin of allowing abortion on demand to continue as the law in the entire country? I am trying to understand you. I would love to have you answer without clouding the issue by bringing up limbo and the rest. Which is worse, voting for Newt Gingrich or allowing abortion on demand to continue as the law of the country?

Ishii
 
Really? Do you have a source for his saying Obama would work out ok? I understand that William Kristol and David Brooks were also in attendance at the lunch, among others who weren’t identified. Apparently Rush and Beck couldn’t make it (or weren’t invited). But even if Will lunched with Obama, what about the points he’s making right now in his column? I was hoping for a comment on Will’s points on their own merits, rather than an ad hominem.

Ishii
Going by my faulty memory here.

ummm … Larry [whatsname] was also there and came back positive. [radio and television talk show guy … conservative. economist.]

KUDLOW … Larry Kudlow.

I recall at the time wondering if these “conservatives” had been imbibing too much or something …

But, I think that Gingrich has the ability to focus on the essentials. paraphrased imaginary Newt Gingrich response to a question: … “the Dept of Energy was formed for the express purpose of delivering the United States into energy independence. But it has failed by every measure, instead going off into every tangent imaginable. They even got custody of the nuclear weapons laboratories and instead of advancing nuclear energy concepts such as the thorium reactor concept, which is being advanced by many other nations such as Russia and India, OUR department of energy got into things like non-lethal weapons for the Army, basically beanbags and net guns. So, we are worse off now for having the dept of energy … So, yes, there is plenty of opportunity outside the department of energy for energy independence … and we could meaningfully transfer the weapons groups to the DoD and spin the rest off into private sector research where they would have to compete for funding in the private sector with the rest of private sector ventures.”

And Gingrich can deliver a comprehensive overview at the drop of a hat.

I like Governor Perry … but he can’t afford too many more of those brain freeze events.

I can have a brain freeze or mental block, but then I’m not running for president.

No worries with Gingrich.
 
TexCatholic
Code:
You seem to suggest that a miscarriage is not a spontaneous abortion. Do you believe that the fetus miscarried was without a soul? Just curious. Life, after all, begins at conception - right? I'm sure God takes good care of those miscarried babies just as he takes good care of those aborted by other means.

 This certainly is not to justify rampant abortions. However, the case in Arizona should show us that an inflexible position against abortion, no matter what, lacks sensiitivity and compassion. It also would add greater power to the government. Somehow I thought conservatives were against that.

 Restrictions on abortion - fine. But to outlaw all medical procedures used in an effort to save the life of a mother strikes me as harsh legalism when each case needs to be decided on its merits. Certainly the choice of the mother should be considered under such dire circumstances.  

 God bless everybody, and especially those women who have to face crisis pregnancies. May God guide them and give them wisdom and peace. Matt. 7:1-6.
 
TexCatholic
Code:
You seem to suggest that a miscarriage is not a spontaneous abortion. Do you believe that the fetus miscarried was without a soul? Just curious. Life, after all, begins at conception - right? I'm sure God takes good care of those miscarried babies just as he takes good care of those aborted by other means.

 This certainly is not to justify rampant abortions. However, the case in Arizona should show us that an inflexible position against abortion, no matter what, lacks sensiitivity and compassion. It also would add greater power to the government. Somehow I thought conservatives were against that.

 Restrictions on abortion - fine. But to outlaw all medical procedures used in an effort to save the life of a mother strikes me as harsh legalism when each case needs to be decided on its merits. Certainly the choice of the mother should be considered under such dire circumstances.  

 God bless everybody, and especially those women who have to face crisis pregnancies. May God guide them and give them wisdom and peace. Matt. 7:1-6.
There is a big difference between directly killing a child and performing a procedure on a pregnant woman that has killing the child as an unintended consequence. There have been women who refuse medical care because it would endanger their unborn child. The Church does not require this, it is the woman’s choice.

Abortion kills many more women than pregnancy does. That’s a fact squelched by the abortion loving msm.

Ask yourself this. If a woman has four kids and is suffering from mental illness caused by the stress of caring for too many children. Should the children be killed to save the mother from committing suicide?
 
qui est ce
Code:
I guess we agree. Ending a pregnancy to save the life of a woman is not the same as 'killing' the baby. It's a tough decision, but I have come to believe that the opinion of the woman and her husband, plus the need of other children for their mom, plus the conclusions of the medical staff - all these are to be considered. There is something wierd about politicians making this decision through hidebound legislation that is intended to cover every circumstance.

No, I would not kill a woman's children because of her mental illness caused (so the scenario goes) by her children. Does anyone you know suggest that? Even the most radical pro-choice feminist would condone such murder. 

 However, what about killing babies by dropping bombs on them? Many pro-life people I know don't seem to squirm about that if those little people are in places like Iraq. They justify it because of 'extending circumstances' etc. 

 There are some consistent people in the world. Most Mennonites (who include the Amish), for example, efuse to condone abortion or war. Many Quakers who take the same position. God bless them.

  It seems to me that some pro-life extremists are very concerned about babies in the womb, but seem to be apathetic when it comes to protecting children already born to 'enemies' overseas.
 
The sentence should read: “Even the most radical pro-choice feminist would NOT condone such murder.” Sorry.
 
TexCatholic
Code:
You seem to suggest that a miscarriage is not a spontaneous abortion. Do you believe that the fetus miscarried was without a soul? Just curious. Life, after all, begins at conception - right? I'm sure God takes good care of those miscarried babies just as he takes good care of those aborted by other means.

 This certainly is not to justify rampant abortions. However, the case in Arizona should show us that an inflexible position against abortion, no matter what, lacks sensiitivity and compassion. It also would add greater power to the government. Somehow I thought conservatives were against that.

 Restrictions on abortion - fine. But to outlaw all medical procedures used in an effort to save the life of a mother strikes me as harsh legalism when each case needs to be decided on its merits. Certainly the choice of the mother should be considered under such dire circumstances.  

 God bless everybody, and especially those women who have to face crisis pregnancies. May God guide them and give them wisdom and peace. Matt. 7:1-6.
At the risk of going off topic, I will reply briefly.

A spontaneous “abortion” is nature working, and not a deliberate act. Why do you infer
that the fetus does not have a soul? A miscarriage is traumatic for anyone, but it is not
made worse by a deliberate abortion, despite the reason.

Roy5, I will not be responding to any other off topic comments.
 
I can have a brain freeze or mental block, but then I’m not running for president.

No worries with Gingrich.
No doubt that Gingrich is smart, and very good at speech-making and rhetoric.

I think he’s his own worst enemy, though. He isn’t going to endear himself to anyone if he keeps getting on TV and talking about the inevitability of his nomination. I’ve heard several pundits say that the “Newt Gingrich story” always ends the same way–with him shooting himself in the foot. In fact, one of them said it was the same story of “Newt Gingrich, a can of gasoline and a Bic lighter.”

If he can avoid setting himself on fire for the next month, he might have a chance.

But as for me and my house, we will vote for Ron Paul. 🙂
 
qui est ce
Code:
I guess we agree. Ending a pregnancy to save the life of a woman is not the same as 'killing' the baby.
No, we do not agree. Purposely ending a pregnancy is always wrong. You seem to miss the fine line between unintended consequences and diliberate killing.
There is something wierd about politicians making this decision through hidebound legislation that is intended to cover every circumstance.
Yet you have no problem with politicians legislating murder
No, I would not kill a woman’s children because of her mental illness caused (so the scenario goes) by her children. Does anyone you know suggest that? Even the most radical pro-choice feminist would condone such murder.
Why not? Perhaps if she had less children to take care of, she could take better care of the remaining children?
Code:
 However, what about killing babies by dropping bombs on them? Many pro-life people I know don't seem to squirm about that if those little people are in places like Iraq.
You are quite wrong about that. We do squrim at the loss of every innocent life.
They justify it because of ‘extending circumstances’ etc.
I suppose if a burglar invaded your home and threatened to kill your family at gunpoint, you would let him. It’s happened to me. If my father had had a gun to protect himself, he would be alive today.
Code:
 There are some consistent people in the world. Most Mennonites (who include the Amish), for example, efuse to condone abortion or war. Many Quakers who take the same position. God bless them.
Then perhaps you should join them. BTW Quakers do not condemn abortion or SS marriage.
Code:
  It seems to me that some pro-life extremists are very concerned about babies in the womb, but seem to be apathetic when it comes to protecting children already born to 'enemies' overseas.
You need to broaden your horizens. Catholics are very concerned about EVERY innocent life being snuffed out. We pray for victims of war at every mass celebrated around the world every day. We pray for peace. Catholic Charities is the largest private charity in the world. We provide care for victims of war and injustice all over the world at every hour of the day and night. Our hospitals care for the sick and wounded EVERYWHERE.

Please get your facts before you go making attacks at people who disagree with you support of abortion because of your so-called “extending circumstances” etc."
 
No doubt that Gingrich is smart, and very good at speech-making and rhetoric.

I think he’s his own worst enemy, though. He isn’t going to endear himself to anyone if he keeps getting on TV and talking about the inevitability of his nomination. I’ve heard several pundits say that the “Newt Gingrich story” always ends the same way–with him shooting himself in the foot. In fact, one of them said it was the same story of “Newt Gingrich, a can of gasoline and a Bic lighter.”

If he can avoid setting himself on fire for the next month, he might have a chance.

But as for me and my house, we will vote for Ron Paul. 🙂
As one pundit remarked “If only good Newt could control bad Newt.” From listening to the discusssion on Morning Joe, though, most thoughtful Republicans don’t want him for the nominee. They say he is too toxic. I guess we’ll see. I don’t know why he had to kiss Trump’s ring yesterday. That showed weakness to me. Tomorrow Cain will be in Howard Stern’s studio for an interview. What in the world is going on? How can we take any of these people seriously?
 
At the risk of going off topic, I will reply briefly.

A spontaneous “abortion” is nature working, and not a deliberate act. Why do you infer
that the fetus does not have a soul? A miscarriage is traumatic for anyone, but it is not
made worse by a deliberate abortion, despite the reason.

Roy5, I will not be responding to any other off topic comments.
Ya, if we punish a woman for an act of nature (spontaneous miscarriage) maybe we should punish…errrrr…someone for every person that dies of natural causes.
 
As one pundit remarked “If only good Newt could control bad Newt.” From listening to the discusssion on Morning Joe, though, most thoughtful Republicans don’t want him for the nominee. They say he is too toxic. I guess we’ll see. I don’t know why he had to kiss Trump’s ring yesterday. That showed weakness to me. Tomorrow Cain will be in Howard Stern’s studio for an interview. What in the world is going on? How can we take any of these people seriously?
I seriously doubt that you’re going to find many Republicans, thoughtful or otherwise, watching MSNBC. I am sure of the half-dozen or so people who actually watch Morning Joe that some of them consider themselves thoughtful Republicans but they most certainly not speak. for the rest of us
 
I seriously doubt that you’re going to find many Republicans, thoughtful or otherwise, watching MSNBC. I am sure of the half-dozen or so people who actually watch Morning Joe that some of them consider themselves thoughtful Republicans but they most certainly not speak. for the rest of us
I don’t find Scarborough particularly thoughtful. I find him a capitulator at best.
 
No doubt that Gingrich is smart, and very good at speech-making and rhetoric.

I think he’s his own worst enemy, though. He isn’t going to endear himself to anyone if he keeps getting on TV and talking about the inevitability of his nomination. I’ve heard several pundits say that the “Newt Gingrich story” always ends the same way–with him shooting himself in the foot. In fact, one of them said it was the same story of “Newt Gingrich, a can of gasoline and a Bic lighter.”
Whenever I listen to Gingrich, he seems to me to be an ignorant man’s idea of an educated man. He himself may be quite clever, but the persona he has taken on does not seem to have the full weight of his intellectual honesty behind it.
 
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