Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[_DLM]

CARM.org sums up the key point for me here.

The RC Church DENIED the Gospel.

CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Rom. 3:20).
“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;” (Rom. 3:24).
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Rom. 3:28).
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Rom. 4:3).
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Rom. 5:1).
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God;” (Eph. 2:8).
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,” (Titus 3:5).

 

[PRmerger]

CARM.org sums up the key point for me here.

The RC Church DENIED the Gospel.

CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

Amen!

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Rom. 3:20).
“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;” (Rom. 3:24).
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Rom. 3:28).
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Rom. 4:3).
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Rom. 5:1).
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God;” (Eph. 2:8).
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,” (Titus 3:5).

Amen!

There is no dichotomy between the two.

 

[_DLM]

Amen!

Amen!

There is no dichotomy between the two.

If you are saying Amen and Amen…how can you justify the discrepancies? You say they are the same…then what is your understanding of how one is justified? Does it fit with all of those statements?

 

[PRmerger]

If you are saying Amen and Amen…how can you justify the discrepancies? You say they are the same…then what is your understanding of how one is justified? Does it fit with all of those statements?

Perhaps it would be better if you pointed out the discrepancies. I see none.

 

[dronald]

Perhaps it would be better if you pointed out the discrepancies. I see none.

Me neither.

Apparently Carm didn’t take the time to read James eh?

 

[pablope]

If you are saying Amen and Amen…how can you justify the discrepancies? You say they are the same…then what is your understanding of how one is justified? Does it fit with all of those statements?

chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

Look for:

Justification By Faith
By Dr. William Marshner

 

[chero23]

Well then let us pray really hard for that!

I second your motion.

 

[benhur]

Me neither.

Apparently Carm didn’t take the time to read James eh?

When one infers that justification and sanctification are the same, then the CC has no discrepancies . But if one has them as distinct meanings, as I think James does, DLM has a point. Otherwise you are saying Abraham was not justified till 19 years later of following Jehovah, when he offered up his son. Demonstration of faith is not procurement of faith.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

When one infers that justification and sanctification are the same, then the CC has no discrepancies .

That is correct.

That is incorrect.

Otherwise you are saying Abraham was not justified till 19 years later of following Jehovah, when he offered up his son. Demonstration of faith is not procurement of faith.

No. You are making the assumption that justification is a one-time event, something that is unbiblical.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Peter_J]

My difficulty isn’t really so much in accepting such things for myself (the most I would say about any Catholic teaching is that I’m not sure–there are no Catholic teachings, even the male-only priesthood which comes closest, which I’m sure are false) as in accepting that these teachings ought to divide me from my fellow Christians. In other words, that those who cannot accept these teachings are material heretics and rightly excluded from full communion with the Church.

Well … at least you can take comfort in the highlighted portion :

if someone who is Catholic (ICWR) somehow comes to disagree with the Pope on the Immaculate Conception, or the filioque, or Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction, etc., then canon law makes it clear that the Pope can choose to excommunicate him/her, but he generally doesn’t do so excepting extreme cases (e.g. Matthew Fox).

 

[Kliska]

When one infers that justification and sanctification are the same, then the CC has no discrepancies . But if one has them as distinct meanings, as I think James does, DLM has a point. Otherwise you are saying Abraham was not justified till 19 years later of following Jehovah, when he offered up his son. Demonstration of faith is not procurement of faith.

 

[benhur]

[The text does not say that she left Him Behind in a careless way. He was a boy - firstly - and went off to preach about His Father and get involved. He was not sinning because He was on a spiritual errand, but in practical terms although He did not sin, He did in fact seemingly go off without telling his parents. Our Lady found Him

. She knows where to look, where to lead us, to find Him. She did no wrong by giving her son room to be a boy and did no wrong by finding Him and even gently rebuking Him. A Mother is meant to correct her Son (in practical terms). Neither sinned. Mary was not expected to know where Jesus was but was expected to do what a Mother does and be concerned for Her son. No sin involved. Mary was not inclined to sin. It is all there if you look.
Thank you for your heart felt response. I never considered Mary to have sinned when they left Jerusalem without Jesus. I kind of just felt like she was human, like one of us, like perhaps my loving mother and others.

Instead of looking at Biblehub on the internet go and grab some books by an R.C publisher or a decent Commentary, and do some proper research, as there are all sorts of translations out there and all sorts of dodgy ones at that.

It is just Holy Scripture. I believe your bible (on biblehub) says the same thing.
biblehub.com/mark/3-21.htm It is not directly implied that Mary and brethren in vs 31 were the" friends" or with friends of vs 21 but many think they are one in the same. Again, don’t look at this as "sin’’ but again, a human mother still pondering the things of the Lord, and overwhelmed by the growing ministry, for Jesus “could not so much as eat bread”- (that is the last thing a mother wants to hear, like come home, take it easy for a spell , rest , eat ).

I am just saying how it is and Why should I do your research for you? Cardinal Newman did his own which led him to full understanding in the R.C Church. D.I.Y! It is more rewarding that way for you I, on the other hand, I have no desire to go to in-depth, correcting your own insights. They are something between you and God. My only duty is to say the Truth in simple terms and this is the case for all Catholics when they see attacks against the Church, and yes, Our Lady and HOLY Mother. I am not on this forum to give myself a massive ego (or a headache) but to state what I understand to be the Truth against heresy. Then you can go and follow up yourself.

Not sure what you mean by research, save read the scriptures, which I think i have concerning Mary. I have also read some that indirectly infer to her according to CC teachers. I have also been on a very personal journey with this, and like any truthful insight, it is to the heart. We differ, but out of respect for our sentiment, not worth quibbling over wrongly.

If one can’t get their head around a Dogma it is not a reason to jump ship. There was a Saint who couldn’t reconcile in (her?) head the Resurrection but the gift of piety told her it was her faith that was lacking not the belief. There was another Saint who was never shown one moment of consolation from God. One of the reasons Jesus came here was not to teach us how to be typical Pharisees and to help us massage our minds and tell us how great our understanding is but to teach us to have faith and live by it.

Well, though we both have reasoning, not a problem of getting “my head around it”, and I also consider my reasoning and and heart felt convictions to be a gift of God . So amen to the source of all enlightenment as you rightly suggest.

Ask me something particular and don’t bring political rambling and politics into religious debate. Not interested.

Sorry, I just mentioned a bit of the history of the dogma

If you want to know something ask in simple and straightforward terms…what about Mary and Calvary?

I did ask, but I can only assume you had renderings similar to other Catholics on the same text “others” read differently, but thank you.

Are you going to argue “sola scriptura” at the end of this? Or are you open in your heart to Reasoned debate…?

Most good reasoning on this, even Catholic reasoning, are said to be founded and felt from Scripture today.

 

[guanophore]

Welcome to the discussion, DLM.

Your affilition says you are Reformed. Does that mean that you believe human beings are saved apart from their will - that human beings are totally depraved, and unable to choos Christ?

CARM.org sums up the key point for me here.

The RC Church DENIED the Gospel.

CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

It does not seem that any of the Scriptures you provided are related to what this canon states. What do you think the canon is saying?

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God;” (Eph. 2:8).

Catholics just don’t stop reading at v. 9, but go on to v. 10. We believe that we are saved for the deeds that God has predestined for us to do. The good works do not save us, but neither are they separated from our salvation. The same grace that justifies us is the grace that creates the good works through us to God’s glory.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,” (Titus 3:5).

This is a reference to Baptism, which saves us.

 

[CrossofChrist]

If you are saying Amen and Amen…how can you justify the discrepancies? You say they are the same…then what is your understanding of how one is justified? Does it fit with all of those statements?

If faith alone excludes charity, how can it fit with any biblical statement?

That’s what Trent was addressing. Justification isn’t merely a declaration of innocence; it’s an outpouring of the life of the Trinity in a person’s soul, installing us with faith, hope, and charity. Insofar as we grow closer and closer to God throughout life, we “increase” in our justification with God, a growth in grace. If you hear terms like increase in grace thrown around, know that just means growing closer to God.

 

[benhur]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).

This is a reference to Baptism, which saves us.

If you read on :“whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,” Titus 3:7 . Washing, renewing, pouring out are attributes of the Holy Spirit, irregardless of any rites. Immersion is not exactly “pouring out” in water baptism either. It is also seems contradictory to say not by a work of righteousness (OT-circumcision, barhmitzvah. NT-baptism ) then say by a work of righteousness (baptism). That water baptism resembles or symbolizes this work of the Holy Spirit does not do away with the specific “not by works done in righteousness” or by something good we have done. To say well we did it by His grace is skirting the issue. We are graced, justified, way before we enter the waters of baptism.

 

[CrossofChrist]

When one infers that justification and sanctification are the same, then the CC has no discrepancies . But if one has them as distinct meanings, as I think James does, DLM has a point. Otherwise you are saying Abraham was not justified till 19 years later of following Jehovah, when he offered up his son. Demonstration of faith is not procurement of faith.

If someone is in a state of grace, they are justified and sanctified. Abraham was sanctified the previous 19 yrs, as well.

Sanctification isn’t merely an outward expression of an interior justified state. To be sanctified is to have that justified state. The works will flow from that. We don’t have to “do” anything to be sanctified, it’s all grace, we just cooperate with the graces given.

 

[benhur]

benhur;12457929:

No. You are making the assumption that justification is a one-time event, something that is unbiblical.

Well you are certainly not justified over and over again. But your action shows that you were once justified-unto good works (set apart for good works=sanctification). I agree salvation is past present and future, but it has a beginning, called justification, regeneration and right away we are seated in heavenly places. Every time I take a step of faith (sanctification) I am not rejustified, but give evidence of an initial justification.

 

[benhur]

If someone is in a state of grace, they are justified and sanctified. Abraham was sanctified the previous 19 yrs, as well.

Sanctification isn’t merely an outward expression of an interior justified state. To be sanctified is to have that justified state. The works will flow from that. We don’t have to “do” anything to be sanctified, it’s all grace, we just cooperate with the graces given.

So are you saying Abraham was justified before his work of faith, offering up Isaac ? Don’t follow you . I have said to be sanctified you are already justified and of course by grace . You don’t have to do anything to be sanctified ? because it is by grace does not mean you are not doing. Justification takes no doing but sanctification is doing both by grace. One is letting it be done to you to become .The other is letting it be done to you so you can do .Justification is not sanctification.

 

[Arizona_Samson]

Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

Thanks.

Fidelity to biblical truth.

 

[Randy_Carson]

When one infers that justification and sanctification are the same, then the CC has no discrepancies . But if one has them as distinct meanings, as I think James does, DLM has a point. Otherwise you are saying Abraham was not justified till 19 years later of following Jehovah, when he offered up his son. Demonstration of faith is not procurement of faith.

The Justifications of Abraham

First Justification – Going to a Foreign Land

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” 4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. (Genesis 12:1-4)

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. (Hebrews 11:8-9)

In the book of Hebrews, Paul makes it clear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 since he is specifically commending the true faith of all the OT “heroes” listed. Given the fact that Abraham’s departure from his homeland would have been a “public” event, I’ll grant that this was “before men”.

However, this seems to create a problem for the evangelical position because if Abraham was justified by demonstrating his faith before men back in Genesis 12, how could he also be justified a decade later when he was also justified by faith in Genesis 15:6?

Second Justification – Believing God

5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:1-3)

6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Galatians 3:6)

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:22-24)

Both Paul and James clearly declare that Abraham was justified when he believed God. No men were present to witness the moment when Abraham counted the stars - the event was a private moment between Abraham and God.

Third Justification – Sacrificing Isaac

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:9-12)

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:20-22)

Abraham was justified (considered righteous) a third time in the sacrifice of Isaac. Again, no men were present to witness the event (unless you want to count Isaac) - the event was a private moment between Abraham and God.

These three moments in the life of Abraham indicate that justification is not a once-for-all event, but a process that occurs throughout the life of the believer.

Finally, some Protestants argue that God already knows if we are among the elect or not, and while this is true, it is also true from the passage from Genesis 22, that the angel, speaking for God, says the following: “Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” “Now I know” implies a temporal aspect to God’s work in the life of Abraham. Yes, God is omniscient, but he continues to work within the temporal framework that He Himself established.