Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

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So are you saying Abraham was justified before his work of faith, offering up Isaac ? Don’t follow you .
I’m saying initial justification is not the result of a work we do, but on the initiative of God. The Catechism’s section on justification is probably worth a read: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM
You don’t have to do anything to be sanctified ?
We can increase in our sanctification, but it’s entirely the grace of God; we cooperate.
because it is by grace does not mean you are not doing.
Right, we cooperate.
Justification is not sanctification.
How is it not? Being made right with God (justification) is the same as being made holy (sanctification).
 
I still think it is wrong to know that God is the “author and finisher of our faith”, which ends the hall of fame discourse in Hebrews, and say every faith action is “justification.”. It is clear from Paul there is a beginning and an end, all by faith. That does not contradict terminologies of justification and sanctification. That is not what Paul is addressing. He does not mention either term in Hebrew 11,12 .
Paul specifically excludes Abraham’s offering up Isaac and the vision in Gen 15 and 22. Hebrews talks of “pleasing God” thru faith. Was Abraham justified in ch12 ? He certainly pleased God by faith, Abraham certainly was justified in ch 15 finally knowing and resting in the messiah promise. Maybe it is like the Lord leading an unbeliever to start attending religious classes.By faith he yields to the prompting.
Is he justified yet ? No, you would say he is justified when he finally believes what the class teaches, faith in the Son (and for C’s baptism), then he is justified, found righteous…All of our actions in the faith are considered righteous, and we one with them. That then does not mean every righteous faith action then forgives us of our sin and puts us back in right standing with God. It only shows a “witness” from God to us and or others, as Heb 11:4 state, “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,”…Again all this stems from are we* saved by works* and of course we all say no.
Then are we saved by *faith alone *and some say no but by faith and works I say all this points to saved by faith, but that faith is “the work of God” in a double sense, for us and the Lord, by grace . Faith is not alone, in that it has an object (Person) as Abraham first had a land (ch 12) then a vision (of Jesus) vs 15. To believe in Jesus is just as much a “work” as Abraham leaving his land for another , or offering up his son etc .
Abraham seems to have been justified when he also believed on the Promise (Jesus),and really did nothing else but “wait”. Justifying faith is alone in that it is apart from any righteous act we do (baptism or circumcision). James talks of a further "witness’’ to that faith by graced righteous actions.
But remember , Abraham had that justification before any righteous action…Thanks for the lengthy and well thought out proposition. Had to chop up your post to “fit”.
 
I still think it is wrong to know that God is the “author and finisher of our faith”, which ends the hall of fame discourse in Hebrews, and say every faith action is “justification.”. It is clear from Paul there is a beginning and an end, all by faith. That does not contradict terminologies of justification and sanctification. That is not what Paul is addressing. He does not mention either term in Hebrew 11,12 . Paul specifically excludes Abraham’s offering up Isaac and the vision in Gen 15 and 22. Hebrews talks of “pleasing God” thru faith. Was Abraham justified in ch12 ? He certainly pleased God by faith, Abraham certainly was justified in ch 15 finally knowing and resting in the messiah promise. Maybe it is like the Lord leading an unbeliever to start attending religious classes.By faith he yields to the prompting. Is he justified yet ? No, you would say he is justified when he finally believes what the class teaches, faith in the Son (and for C’s baptism), then he is justified, found righteous…All of our actions in the faith are considered righteous, and we one with them. That then does not mean every righteous faith action then forgives us of our sin and puts us back in right standing with God. It only shows a “witness” from God to us and or others, as Heb 11:4 state, “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,”…Again all this stems from are we* saved by works* and of course we all say no. Then are we saved by *faith alone *and some say no but by faith and works I say all this points to saved by faith, but that faith is “the work of God” in a double sense, for us and the Lord, by grace . Faith is not alone, in that it has an object (Person) as Abraham first had a land (ch 12) then a vision (of Jesus) vs 15. To believe in Jesus is just as much a “work” as Abraham leaving his land for another , or offering up his son etc . Abraham seems to have been justified when he also believed on the Promise (Jesus),and really did nothing else but “wait”. Justifying faith is alone in that it is apart from any righteous act we do (baptism or circumcision). James talks of a further "witness’’ to that faith by graced righteous actions. But remember , Abraham had that justification before any righteous action…Thanks for the lengthy and well thought out proposition. Had to chop up your post to “fit”.
Ben-

Any chance you can use double-spacing between paragraphs or main ideas? :whacky:

Look at post #886 for ideas to improve readability. Thanks.
 
I still think it is wrong to know that God is the “author and finisher of our faith”, which ends the hall of fame discourse in Hebrews, and say every faith action is “justification.”. It is clear from Paul there is a beginning and an end, all by faith. That does not contradict terminologies of justification and sanctification.
That is not what Paul is addressing. He does not mention either term in Hebrew 11,12 . Paul specifically excludes Abraham’s offering up Isaac and the vision in Gen 15 and 22. Hebrews talks of “pleasing God” thru faith.
Was Abraham justified in ch12 ? He certainly pleased God by faith, Abraham certainly was justified in ch 15 finally knowing and resting in the messiah promise. Maybe it is like the Lord leading an unbeliever to start attending religious classes.By faith he yields to the prompting.
Is he justified yet ? No, you would say he is justified when he finally believes what the class teaches, faith in the Son (and for C’s baptism), then he is justified, found righteous…All of our actions in the faith are considered righteous, and we one with them. That then does not mean every righteous faith action then forgives us of our sin and puts us back in right standing with God. It only shows a “witness” from God to us and or others, as Heb 11:4 state, “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,”…Again all this stems from are we* saved by works* and of course we all say no. Then are we saved by *faith alone *and some say no but by faith and works
I say all this points to saved by faith, but that faith is “the work of God” in a double sense, for us and the Lord, by grace . Faith is not alone, in that it has an object (Person) as Abraham first had a land (ch 12) then a vision (of Jesus) vs 15.
To believe in Jesus is just as much a “work” as Abraham leaving his land for another , or offering up his son etc . Abraham seems to have been justified when he also believed on the Promise (Jesus),and really did nothing else but “wait”. Justifying faith is alone in that it is apart from any righteous act we do (baptism or circumcision). James talks of a further "witness’’ to that faith by graced righteous actions.
But remember , Abraham had that justification before any righteous action…Thanks for the lengthy and well thought out proposition. Had to chop up your post to “fit”.
 
Ben-

Any chance you can use double-spacing between paragraphs or main ideas? :whacky:

Look at post #886 for ideas to improve readability. Thanks.
I was thinking the same thing.

Paragraphs are our friends.

Double spacing is our friend.

More people are likely to read when it’s short and sweet. 🙂
 
Ben-

Any chance you can use double-spacing between paragraphs or main ideas? :whacky:

Look at post #886 for ideas to improve readability. Thanks.
Stupid question how do you do that ? Do u type on forum page or do u go to "word " or other processor then paste ? My cursor will not allow it. I hate it also. Have almost asked before but never did. Do not know what half the stuff does at top tool bar.
 
Stupid question how do you do that ? Do u type on forum page or do u go to "word " or other processor then paste ? My cursor will not allow it. I hate it alos. Have almost asked before but never did. Do not know what half the stuff does at top tool bar.
Not a stupid question at all.

It’s actually painful to do because word/libre office format is not recognized in the forum’s php code.

So you have to do it by hand.

You can use the integrated tools on top of the reply field to indent, bold, align, etc.

If your device allows it, there is a little triangle on the bottom right of the writing box thingy that can be made wider/longer to expand the writing field if you need it.
 
Stupid question how do you do that ? Do u type on forum page or do u go to "word " or other processor then paste ? My cursor will not allow it. I hate it also. Have almost asked before but never did. Do not know what half the stuff does at top tool bar.
Here is an example.

Notice that there is an empty line above this one?

At the end of that sentence, I typed instead of 'cause young people may not know what a carriage return is.

As for the tool bar:

Bold
Italic
Underline
Left Justification
Center Justification
Right Justification​
    • Numbered
    • List
    • Bullets
    Decrease Indent (undoes previously indented typing)
    Increase Indent (See what I did there?)
 
If you read on :“whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,” Titus 3:7 . Washing, renewing, pouring out are attributes of the Holy Spirit, irregardless of any rites. Immersion is not exactly “pouring out” in water baptism either
Indeed, the HS is not bound by rites, as the HS clearly showed Peter at the house of Cornelius, but Peter understsood that the infilling of the HS was inextricably bound to the water of Baptism. In Baptism he HS is poured into us - infused into our souls, causing us to be born again from above.
It is also seems contradictory to say not by a work of righteousness (OT-circumcision, barhmitzvah. NT-baptism ) then say by a work of righteousness (baptism).
Baptism saves because in it, we are joined with Christ in his death and resurrection. It is not the water that regenerates, but the HS working in and through the water that cleanses and regenerates.
and That water baptism resembles or symbolizes this work of the Holy Spirit does not do away with the specific “not by works done in righteousness” or by something good we have done. To say well we did it by His grace is skirting the issue. We are graced, justified, way before we enter the waters of baptism.
Certainly it is only grace that leads us into the bath of regenerataion, and the works that the HS produces in us are those animated by His Spirit.
 
Here is an example.

Notice that there is an empty line above this one?

At the end of that sentence, I typed instead of 'cause young people may not know what a carriage return is.

As for the tool bar:

Bold
Italic
Underline
Left Justification
Center Justification
Right Justification​

oh my gosh I am going to be dangerous .Thanks

    • Numbered
    • List
    • Bullets
    Decrease Indent (undoes previously indented typing)Increase Indent (See what I did there?)

  1. ok don’t have “return” just “tab” (does nothing) but “enter” works
      • find
      • hold
      • keep
      oh my gosh i am going to be dangerous thanks folks
 
If your device allows it, there is a little triangle on the bottom right of the writing box thingy that can be made wider/longer to expand the writing field if you need it.
I love those things. I think it’s from using Chrome as a browser. 👍
 
Around the 11th century, the partiarchs of the east refused to accept that THEY were not the Royal Steward and Chief Shepherd of Christ’s flock. 500 years later, other groups did the same.

So did the Arians, the Nestorians, the Pelagians, the Waldensians…
And today, people who wouldn’t dare try to install their own plumbing or their own electricity consider themselves qualified to interpret the Bible, and invent their own moral codes.
 
Indeed, the HS is not bound by rites, as the HS clearly showed Peter at the house of Cornelius, but Peter understsood that the infilling of the HS was inextricably bound to the water of Baptism. In Baptism he HS is poured into us - infused into our souls, causing us to be born again from above.
First part we agree, the HS is not bound by rites. Second part disagree but understand your point. It is difficult when baptism follows a spiritual awakening and when the rite is spoken of as representative of reality that make it seem like the rite is effectual. Folks then professed immediately with baptism, and that is how you knew you had a new brother. My experience is with folks who had experiences more like Cornelius, regenerated before baptismal rite.
Certainly it is only grace that leads us into the bath of regenerataion, and the works that the HS produces in us are those animated by His Spirit
.Yes and for many that inner bath is not bound to the outer rite.
 
Another assumption. The doctrine of Purgatory was introduced in Catholic in 1439AD.
A question; Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise the same day. Why not after he went to purgatory as his sins were not cleansed fully?
The good thief was not sitting comfortably in his armchair thinking it might be nice to become a follower of Christ, and offering up his annoyance that his little 2 year old child had left a toy in the living room as his “crucifixion with Christ.”

He was actually, literally, and physically being crucified with Christ.

I think he did sufficient penance. I also think it is safe to say that he went to Paradise that same day, and from thence to Heaven, when Christ opened the Gates at His Resurrection on the Third Day. 🙂
 
And today, people who wouldn’t dare try to install their own plumbing or their own electricity consider themselves qualified to interpret the Bible, and invent their own moral codes.
👍
 
Code:
I'm saying initial justification is not the result of a work we do, but on the initiative of God. The Catechism's section on justification is probably worth a read: [vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM)
We can increase in our sanctification, but it’s entirely the grace of God; we cooperate.

This document is also very helpful, especially in dialogue with Lutherans.


It addresses a lot of the misundertsandings around Luther’s complaints that fomented the Reformation.
How is it not? Being made right with God (justification) is the same as being made holy (sanctification).
One of the very sad sequalae of the Reformation was that theologians separated justification, sanctification, and glorification. Part of this was an attempt to reject the Catholic understanding of the “state of grace”. One of the unfortunate outcomes was the heresy of “once saved always saved”.
 
I still think it is wrong to know that God is the “author and finisher of our faith”, which ends the hall of fame discourse in Hebrews, and say every faith action is “justification.”. It is clear from Paul there is a beginning and an end, all by faith. That does not contradict terminologies of justification and sanctification. That is not what Paul is addressing. He does not mention either term in Hebrew 11,12 .
Oh I agree whole heartedly. It is for God to determine which acts of ours leave us “justified” or in “right relationship” with him. Doing the good works that He has ordained for us does work to keep us “justified” (in a state of grace) and also to sanctify us.

9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Eph. 2:10

Peter is clear that “making every effort” does serve to increase our movement toward salvation.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.2 Pet. 1:5

Pursuit of virtues of the Spirit will confirm our calling, and make us more useful to Christ.
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Was Abraham justified in ch12  ? He certainly pleased God  by faith, Abraham certainly was justified in ch 15 finally knowing and resting in the messiah promise. Maybe it is like the Lord leading an unbeliever to start attending religious classes.By faith he yields to the prompting.
I was taught this is “drawing grace”, Catholics call it “prevenient grace”, but whatever the name, it is that grace that is extended to everyone in order that they may be saved. People either respond to it, and become elected, or not.
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faith in the Son (and for C's baptism), then he is justified, found righteous....All of our actions in the faith are considered righteous, and we one with them. That then does not mean every righteous faith action then forgives us of our sin and puts us back in right standing with God.
But there are many actions that we can have confidence will do this, because God has already revealed that they do.

8Above all, love each other deeply, because** love covers over a multitude of sins**. 9Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms.( I Peter 4)

The text is not clear if it covers one’s own sins, or those of others? Perhaps both?
It only shows a “witness” from God to us and or others, as Heb 11:4 state, “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,”…Again all this stems from are we* saved by works* and of course we all say no.
I think a more clear distinction is that we are saved by grace, through faith, and the quality of that saving faith is a faith that works. Otherwise, it is a dead faith.
Then are we saved by *faith alone *and some say no but by faith and works I say all this points to saved by faith, but that faith is “the work of God” in a double sense, for us and the Lord, by grace . Faith is not alone, in that it has an object (Person).
This is really the only reason that the CC rejects these “solas” - they are not alone. Saving faith is never separated from the grace that we access through it. Saving faith is never separated from the works that it produces in the saved person. And most especially, the witness of Scripture:

“And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” I Cor 13:13.

So we cannot separate them and leave any of them “alone”.
Justifying faith is alone in that it is apart from any righteous act we do (baptism or circumcision).
The Apostles did not see these as separated as you do. Justifying faith, being faith that “works” finds it’s expression in certain acts. I do agree, though, the acts are only connected to salvaiton to the extent that they express the faith that justifies. An interesting perspective on justification can be seen in Luke 1:5

“In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6**Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. **”

Since we know that one cannot become blameless and righteous in the sight of God by observance of the Law, we must understand this passage to mean that Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteoues because they lived by grace, through faith. Their observance of the Lord’s commands were an expression of their saving faith, but not the cause of it.
Had to chop up your post to “fit”.
This is one of my favorite topics, but it is WAY off the thread topic I think.
 
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