Given the principles of evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc, do you think belief in the supernatural will die out or become a m

[Vera_Ljuba]

Now this is the vitally important point and if you don’t understand this, there is no point in continuing. Whoever drew the ace GETS TO KEEP IT. And more importantly, he passes it on to the next generation.

Quite simple really.

Indeed it is very, very simple. And no matter how many times we repeat it, those who do not understand it the first time, will never understand it. The resident village idiots keep on referring to the “blind goddess of chance”, and they even capitalize it, as if it were a person. They are beyond redemption.

The power of “chance” is very visible on a Galton board, and it is demonstrated here: youtube.com/watch?v=6YDHBFVIvIs Easy mathematics even for the uninitiated. Something to remember: “chance” does NOT equal chaos. Unfortunately, that is also beyond the ability to comprehend for some.

---

But let’s get back to the original question. Will the “superstition” eventually “die out”? I don’t think so. I am very sad about this, but in this case optimism is out of place. The principle of the Galton board is applicable to all random natural processes. The average intelligence follows this distribution. Most people have average intelligence, a few are at the extremes. And the ones at the lower end of the spectrum will never understand the reality, they will always be sticking to the “superstition”, no matter how incorrect it is. People WANT to believe in the “mysterious”, people WANT to believe in the existence of the “inexplicable”. No matter how many times the charlatans (like Uri Geller or the “faith healers”) are exposed to be hoax-masters, people WILL keep on believing them. It is a psychological need.

 

[edwest2]

Indeed it is very, very simple. And no matter how many times we repeat it, those who do not understand it the first time, will never understand it. The resident village idiots keep on referring to the “blind goddess of chance”, and they even capitalize it, as if it were a person. They are beyond redemption.

The power of “chance” is very visible on a Galton board, and it is demonstrated here: youtube.com/watch?v=6YDHBFVIvIs Easy mathematics even for the uninitiated. Something to remember: “chance” does NOT equal chaos. Unfortunately, that is also beyond the ability to comprehend for some.

---

But let’s get back to the original question. Will the “superstition” eventually “die out”? I don’t think so. I am very sad about this, but in this case optimism is out of place. The principle of the Galton board is applicable to all random natural processes. The average intelligence follows this distribution. Most people have average intelligence, a few are at the extremes. And the ones at the lower end of the spectrum will never understand the reality, they will always be sticking to the “superstition”, no matter how incorrect it is. People WANT to believe in the “mysterious”, people WANT to believe in the existence of the “inexplicable”. No matter how many times the charlatans (like Uri Geller or the “faith healers”) are exposed to be hoax-masters, people WILL keep on believing them. It is a psychological need.

Interesting. The Catholic Church, using whatever witnesses and experts it calls upon, investigates and approve miracles. These occur far more often than mentioned in the media. There is no need, and indeed there is an obvious segment of the population, that sees no need for God/gods or anything supernatural.

The uneducated are not necessarily unintelligent. I deal with people at both ends of the spectrum, from those who teach at the University level, bona fide geniuses, and all those below these classifications.

Life is filled with many challenges that require creative solutions. There is more than enough to do. Imagination is a great catalyst for problem solving.

Chance is inadequate to explain a lot of things that are actually observed.

Ed

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed it is very, very simple. And no matter how many times we repeat it, those who do not understand it the first time, will never understand it. The resident village idiots keep on referring to the “blind goddess of chance”, and they even capitalize it, as if it were a person. They are beyond redemption.

The power of “chance” is very visible on a Galton board, and it is demonstrated here: youtube.com/watch?v=6YDHBFVIvIs Easy mathematics even for the uninitiated. Something to remember: “chance” does NOT equal chaos. Unfortunately, that is also beyond the ability to comprehend for some.

---

But let’s get back to the original question. Will the “superstition” eventually “die out”? I don’t think so. I am very sad about this, but in this case optimism is out of place. The principle of the Galton board is applicable to all random natural processes. The average intelligence follows this distribution. Most people have average intelligence, a few are at the extremes. And the ones at the lower end of the spectrum will never understand the reality, they will always be sticking to the “superstition”, no matter how incorrect it is. People WANT to believe in the “mysterious”, people WANT to believe in the existence of the “inexplicable”. No matter how many times the charlatans (like Uri Geller or the “faith healers”) are exposed to be hoax-masters, people WILL keep on believing them. It is a psychological need.

If the power of comprehension is derived from mindless processes comprehension itself is an infantile fantasy.

**Precisely how were hindsight, insight and foresight produced by molecules which didn’t, don’t and never will know what they are doing?

**I guarantee there will be no answer to that question because it is a sheer act of faith. It would be the greatest miracle in the history of the universe - particularly as the mindless Goddess is the Supreme Ignoramus! She is capitalised because Chance is supposed to be Prime Cause of all existence, development and fulfilment. It is materialism that is the greatest hoax and the charlatans are those who worship their Mistress as eternal and omnipotent with their psychological need to assert themselves as the greatest, infallible authorities on the nature of reality.

As for “resident village idiots” it is a well-known fact that some individuals attribute their own defects to others. Folly as well as charity begins at home…

 

[tonyrey]

What you post is an indication that you don’t understand the basics of evolution. To do what you suggested is easy to calculate. Pick a random sequence of cards and if you want to know the odds of a specific order being selected, it’s factorial 52. Written as 52! It’s a reasonably large number:

80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883277824000000000000.

Big, huh? Impossible, actually, to comprehend. But evolution doesn’t shuffle 52 options with the hope of getting an eye from nothing. It wouldn’t happen. However…

What happens is that getting a tiny advantage over the guy next door means that you generally live longer and that you pass on that advantage. So if the ace of spades gives you an advantage for some reason, then it will only need 52 organisms ‘taking a card’ for the odds of one of them getting the ace to be 1.

Now this is the vitally important point and if you don’t understand this, there is no point in continuing. Whoever drew the ace GETS TO KEEP IT. And more importantly, he passes it on to the next generation.

So if you drew the ace, you have a small, but significant, chance of surviving long enough to pass it on to your daughter. Then you shuffle and everyone makes another selection.

All those who already had the ace (on average there will be 100 if there are 5200 people drawing cards) are now looking to draw the deuce of spades. On average, two of them will do it. And keep it. And pass it on. And those with both cards will have an even greater chance of passing on the benefit to multiple generations.

As you said, rinse and repeat. You don’t need to get everything you need in one hit. See the number above for the impossibility of that with just 52 options. You just need a tiny advantage and the ability to pass that advantage on to successive generations so that they can build on it.

Quite simple really.

So simple that chaos produced rational beings who discovered that chaos produced rational beings who discovered that chaos produced rational beings who discovered that…

 

[edwest2]

So simple that chaos produced rational beings who discovered that chaos produced rational beings who discovered that chaos produced rational beings who discovered that…

I couldn’t have said - or repeated it - better. If evolution was a storytelling element, and I have years of experience in this area, its infinite flexibility would take away from its plausibility. And readers of fiction, no slight intended, prefer science fiction that is at least plausible.

Ed

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Interesting. The Catholic Church, using whatever witnesses and experts it calls upon, investigates and approve miracles.

What does that have to do with anything? The article here: telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10783125/The-miracle-that-earned-John-Paul-II-his-sainthood.html makes one extremely skeptical about the approval process of the “miracles”. How can such a flimsy “evidence” be considered sufficient for canonization? Your usage of “whatever witnesses and experts it calls upon” is rather telling… “WHATEVER experts”?

The uneducated are not necessarily unintelligent. I deal with people at both ends of the spectrum, from those who teach at the University level, bona fide geniuses, and all those below these classifications.

Being a genius in one field is quite compatible with being a total idiot in another one.

Chance is inadequate to explain a lot of things that are actually observed.

Might be interesting see what actual examples you wish to offer. Evolution is certainly not one of them. But the topic of this thread is NOT evolution. It is a discussion if beliefs in some supernatural or paranormal or any other superstition will eventually die out. My prediction is that they will NOT die out, and I would love to lose that “bet”.

 

[tonyrey]

I couldn’t have said - or repeated it - better. If evolution was a storytelling element, and I have years of experience in this area, its infinite flexibility would take away from its plausibility. And readers of fiction, no slight intended, prefer science fiction that is at least plausible.
Ed

You’re dead right, Ed. Biological evolution is supposed to be capable of explaining anything whatsoever, thereby endowing it with a power that has never been surpassed in the history of the universe. It amounts to a deification of Chance, ignoring the astonishing success of science which in a relatively short space of time has achieved far more **control **of events on this planet than mindless molecules have ever done. Only idiots would leave important decisions to be made by throws of the dice yet those who glorify atomic particles attribute the power of science to a series of random genetic mutations - as if they end up by explaining themselves! They reduce reasoning to a permutation of neural impulses and thought to “a little agitation of the brain” even though, as Pascal pointed out, we are aware the universe exists whereas the universe isn’t aware we exist! It seems this planet has become a lunatic asylum…

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Biological evolution is supposed to be capable of explaining anything whatsoever

You really need to go back to school, if you believe such nonsense. Bless your heart!

 

[tonyrey]

What does that have to do with anything? The article here: telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10783125/The-miracle-that-earned-John-Paul-II-his-sainthood.html makes one extremely skeptical about the approval process of the “miracles”. How can such a flimsy “evidence” be considered sufficient for canonization? Your usage of “whatever witnesses and experts it calls upon” is rather telling… “WHATEVER experts”?

The evidence for miracles on this planet is far greater than the evidence for the hypothesis that our power of reason is the result of permutations of mindless molecules…

Might be interesting see what actual examples you wish to offer. Evolution is certainly not one of them. But the topic of this thread is NOT evolution.

The topic is whether evolution will lead to the demise of belief in the supernatural. In other words is it an adequate explanation of the existence of rational beings, one of whom you claim to be under false pretences according to your reduction of reason to a product of mindless molecules?

It is a discussion if beliefs in some supernatural or paranormal or any other superstition will eventually die out. My prediction is that they will NOT die out, and I would love to lose that “bet”.

You have given the game away! You have admitted you are irrationally prejudiced against the belief that reality does not consist entirely of physical energy.

 

[tonyrey]

Biological evolution is supposed to be capable of explaining **anything whatsoever.**You really need to go back to school, if you believe such nonsense. Bless your heart!

I’m not the one who rejects any other explanation of our existence as rational beings. Why else do you believe we exist apart from biological evolution?

 

[tonyrey]

As I predicted no one has explained how hindsight, insight and foresight were produced by molecules which didn’t, don’t and never will know what they are doing - for the simple reason that it is impossible!

 

[edwest2]

The Technocracy is all. Science will be victorious. It will give us untold wonders. It will lead us to the promised… uh… explanation of all things. Which, as I recall, is 42.

Meanwhile, more death, killing and other sundry things humans do to each other. Which have no other meaning aside from affecting our selfish genes, which, of course, have no consciousness.

But God will not be mocked (although we will).

Proverbs 21:30

New International Version
There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.

New Living Translation
No human wisdom or understanding or plan can stand against the LORD.

English Standard Version
No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the LORD.

So, people are free to think what they want.

With all due respect,
Ed

 

[Bradski]

I’m not the one who rejects any other explanation of our existence as rational beings. Why else do you believe we exist apart from biological evolution?

Let’s just agree that you think that God is the cause and then we can all move on. Deal?

 

[tonyrey]

Let’s just agree that you think that God is the cause and then we can all move on. Deal?

When you have answered the question:

Why else do you believe we exist apart from biological evolution?

The OP implies that it may well cause belief in the supernatural to die out or become a minority worldview…

 

[Bradski]

When you have answered the question:

Why else do you believe we exist apart from biological evolution?

I don’t believe there’s a reason. You do. I know how we got here. You believe you know why. End of discussion. Can we move on?

 

[edwest2]

My dear Bradski. It appears a few people do not want to move on.

It’s just the nature of the internet.

Ed

 

[Aloysium]

. . . beliefs in some supernatural or paranormal or any other superstition will eventually die out. My prediction is that they will NOT die out, and I would love to lose that “bet”.

The story about the Tower of Babel you may have heard and understood as a quaint myth explaining the emergence of different languages. That interpretation is to its real meaning, what Santa Claus is to Christmas. What the story addresses is the outcome of humanity trying to reach heaven, to scale the heights, the mountain and get an view of how things are, to pierce the truth, and to do so without God, without the Truth Himself. It shows what happens to us when we are lost in the paranormal and act on superstitious beliefs. This is a story for all time, and especially ours.

As to your statement, quoted above, I think I get what you are trying to say, but the words as I understand them don’t fit how you are using them. For example, the word supernatural - I would agree with this poster, below, although I also use it to mean what is other than physical - the spiritual.

. . . only God is “supernatural”. . .

Mathematics, science and art are some of the fruit that we find in the garden that is our existence, our relationship with the universe in which we participate. Within my own understanding of how all this fits together, I would therefore classify them as natural although they are not physical, and are attributed to our spirit.

As to “paranormal”, it means beside the norm. Like “paranoid”, a mind beside itself, it would have to do with the image of the world created by the mind, which does not comply or is incongruous with reality. Scientism, is in my opinion, a variant of the paranormal, attributing to physical processes, phenomena that are clearly governed by another order of reality that includes beauty, morality and meaning. Science is actually magical, with its potions and mathematical incantations.

Superstition is what happens when we lose ourselves in the abyss of ignorance, nothing solid beneath our feet and no compass to guide us out of the darkness that is everywhere around us. “What ifs” bring together fragmented and vague images of what is known, constructing illusions of the world. They may elicit dread as worries about losing that which is precious to us. We engage in all sorts of behaviour to stave off these thoughts, the most effective, the light that leads us out, being prayer. Since superstition involves irrational beliefs about causality, and God being the ultimate Cause, omnibenevolent, you can’t go wrong with prayer.

So, to clarify the relationship between supernatural, paranormal and superstition: we are all driven to seek the Supernatural, although we may not recognize it as such in our quest for happiness, beauty, truth and the good. Humanity has a fallen nature, and we enter deeper into darkness as our life’s focus, the centre of our garden, rather than being God is replaced by our selves. In that growing darkness, we may fall victim to the paranormal, that which is illusory, transient and ultimately unfulfilling. Rather than a righteous attitude governing our actions, superstitious thinking and behaviour take hold in a fruitless attempt to lift ourselves from the darkness, made known by the Light that is God Himself.

I have hope that we can all know the Truth. Ignorance will not win out for humanity as a whole.

 

[grannymh]

I don’t believe there’s a reason. You do. I know how we got here. You believe you know why. End of discussion. Can we move on?

If we move on, maybe someone will figure out that in the Catholic Church, there is a difference between the material world, normal, everyday evolution and the Science of Human Evolution which clashes with Adam and Eve as two, sole, real, fully-complete humans who founded the human species. Pardon the long sentence.

 

[Bradski]

If we move on, maybe someone will figure out that in the Catholic Church, there is a difference between the material world, normal, everyday evolution and the Science of Human Evolution which clashes with Adam and Eve as two, sole, real, fully-complete humans who founded the human species. Pardon the long sentence.

We know there is a difference. Those who understand evolution and those same people who need to believe in an original couple have a problem. After pointing that out, it’s something of a waste of time discussing it further.

But from that point onwards, we could discuss the allegorical and spiritual implications of Genesis OR we could discuss the process of evolution. It’s not possible to blend the two. They are completely, totally and undeniably at odds with each other. Pick one and it denies the other.

 

[grannymh]

We know there is a difference. Those who understand evolution and those same people who need to believe in an original couple have a problem. After pointing that out, it’s something of a waste of time discussing it further.

But from that point onwards, we could discuss the allegorical and spiritual implications of Genesis OR we could discuss the process of evolution. It’s not possible to blend the two. They are completely, totally and undeniably at odds with each other. Pick one and it denies the other.

Please try again about difference.

The difference comes down to Catholic doctrines or no Catholic doctrines. The process of evolution is not a big deal if there are no Catholic doctrines specifically pertaining to a specific material process in the material world. Think about that and its implications. That should lead to the difference that when the process of evolution intersects with a Catholic doctrine, Divine Revelation trumps.

Obviously, there is a Catholic doctrine specifying that there is a God Who is a Divine Creator God. Genesis 1: 1. From that point of view, the “supernatural” will continue to exist. Please note that the supernatural does not depend on human beliefs.

I am interested in a discussion about the allegorical and spiritual implications of Genesis. Which chapters? There are 50.