God cannot explain the origin of life

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Causality is not valid at big bang point because the laws of physics break down at that point.
OK – hold on a second.

You’re claiming that there’s no creator because, at the point of creation, the laws of physics (of a created universe) did not yet exist?

You realize you’re just creating a tautology that asserts “no creator because I say so”, don’t you? :rolleyes:

Or, at best, you’re asserting that creation is impossible because ‘createdness’ requires an prior ‘creation’ (of laws). That just doesn’t hold up.
 
The Bible says that God created heaven and earth. Does that include the sun?
 
What is Genesis? Alex.
Genesis is the first book of the Bible, but many people, including some Roman Catholics, do not take Genesis literally, For example, according to Genesis, God was walking around in a garden thousands of years before Christ. But many Roman Catholics will tell you that God is immovable. If God were immovable, how could He be walking around in a garden? Perhaps God is not immovable after all.
I think my point stands that some Jews will say that it is not required to believe that divine intervention was necessary for their to be life, or at least in the sense that it is possible that life had sprung up naturally due to chemical- biological reactions.
 
I read recently that compared to living bacteria cells, viruses do not exist in cells, have no metabolism and cannot reproduce independently. They exist primarily as bits of RNA, DNA, and protein that manage to be incorporated withing living cells, where they participate in the reproduction and metabolism of those cells.

Can viruses be considered life?
 
That is a topic of secondary factors…

There is a reason I included [Muhammed] in my signposts post. While I don’t belueve him to be a “real” signpost I acknowledged him for the point of philosophizing and being fair in such. We cannot have a qualiy discourse if we cannot at least temporarily see varying perspectives.

Islam teaches people are given a chance to convert… I do not know the specifics, but I gether if they are not doomed to instant death by the quran it is because ignorance is excused to a similar degree 😛
You are not allowed to convert to another religion if you are a Muslim.
 
OK – hold on a second.

You’re claiming that there’s no creator because, at the point of creation, the laws of physics (of a created universe) did not yet exist?
I simply say that there is no need for God at the Big Band point since everything can comes from nowhere.
You realize you’re just creating a tautology that asserts “no creator because I say so”, don’t you? :rolleyes:
This is not my finding.
Or, at best, you’re asserting that creation is impossible because ‘createdness’ requires an prior ‘creation’ (of laws). That just doesn’t hold up.
I am saying that there are three systems of thoughts agnostic, atheist and theist where agnostic system is the most fair one unless you are convinced by a strong fact. This is true because in other two systems of thoughts one (atheist) can ask where God got infinite power from whereas in another one (theist) one can ask where all this stuff came from.
 
I am, and as an aspect of my being, I have a developed set of ways in which I perceive, understand and respond to my world, outer and inner.
Correct. We all have a mental model of the external world inside our heads. However, being human, this model is not always correct. It contains some errors.
Among these mental phenomena, is a self-image.
Yes. But as you change, your self-image also changes. You have not shown a permanent ‘self’ here.
There exist a separation between you and me.
Naturally. Your chain of causation is not the same as my chain of causation. We are different chains. That separation does not require that we be unchanging.
In Buddhism, there is no transmigration of the soul.
Of course not. There is no soul, so it cannot transmigrate.
The karma that would cause us to be reborn may be the outcome of what we do now, but it would generate a new person
It does. We are constantly changing. I can remember what I had for breakfast this morning. Yesterday I could not remember that because today’s breakfast was still in the future. Are my memories a part of me? My memories are constantly changing: every minute I add one more minute’s worth of memories. If you want to look for an unchanging self/soul, then it cannot include your memories because your memories change. Do the same analysis to see if you can find any part of you that does not change. In the Buddhist analysis, all parts of a human being change, so there cannot be an unchanging soul anywhere. This is one of the places where our internal mental models do not correspond with reality. A permanent unchanging soul is an artefact of our internal mental models; it has no existence in external reality.

rossum
 
You are pulling God into the finite.
The Red Sea is part of the finite, so God must have been at least partly inside the finite in order to act to part it for Moses.

Jesus was born on earth, so He was also inside the finite.

The Abrahamic God acts inside the finite. If you want a God who is not part of the finite, then the Hindu Brahman is probably a better choice.

rossum
 
All agree on the nature of the intial creation of life from the original ever existing God.
Which has a big logical problem if God is described as a “living” God, as I have pointed out.
The only major religion that disagrees is Buddhism…
I am not sure of the Jain position on this. There are a number of similarities between Buddhism and Jainism. The Buddha was a younger contemporary of the Mahavira, so both were aware of what the other taught.

rossum
 
Which has a big logical problem if God is described as a “living” God, as I have pointed out.
Well here is the issue, we simply have a has been mentioned by a zillion posters a different concept of God. God is not life in any form that would ve subject to your reasoning.

On the flip side to your version of God then He clearly did not create the universe IF you are right.
I am not sure of the Jain position on this. There are a number of similarities between Buddhism and Jainism. The Buddha was a younger contemporary of the Mahavira, so both were aware of what the other taught.
Yeah I cant keep up with every religion, but Jain is never mentioned in the usual recitals of major religions. Much as there is “Christianity” but some way out there versions. And there is Islam and a few (like Bahai I think) confusing offshoot thingys… we can’t list them all all the time. So I would pressume there are at least 30 strange versions of buddhism hidden somewhere in the world that agree with the general tennants.
 
Genesis is the first book of the Bible, but many people, including some Roman Catholics, do not take Genesis literally, For example, according to Genesis, God was walking around in a garden thousands of years before Christ. But many Roman Catholics will tell you that God is immovable. If God were immovable, how could He be walking around in a garden? Perhaps God is not immovable after all.
I think my point stands that some Jews will say that it is not required to believe that divine intervention was necessary for their to be life, or at least in the sense that it is possible that life had sprung up naturally due to chemical- biological reactions.
When I was small I had, as part of a chemistry set, round plastic pieces of different sizes and colours with parts that fit into each other, representing atoms that combined to form molecules - a very effective teaching device to understand the structure of the world. At that point the structure of DNA had been discovered. Later I would learn how complex organic molecules (enzymes) have a shape that electromagnetically brings other molecules into position so as to dramatically increase the probability of a particular chemical reaction occurring. This in along with all the intricately complex series of events that occur in DNA replication and its central role in protein synthesis. I recall there also being pictures of what were the tiny solar systems that constituted atoms. In the microcosm were to be found the same patterns seen in the macrocosm. An older concept but valuable nontheless in understanding how matter works.

This rambling discourse is to illustrate how the mind works as we reach out within the world around us to intellectually capture its structure and behaviour. We use simple concepts derived from our every-day perceptual, mostly visual, experience. But, all this gets very complex, very quickly as we peer deeper into the nature of matter. We have to devise new ways to explain our observations. Sometimes something very confusing and complex is revealed to be so simple: the movement of the planets, the elusive shape of benzene (the snake biting its tail in a dream), as well as the double helix.

How are we to speak about God and creation? He has to reveal Himself, or we are lost. He has established a historical dialogue with humanity through His church in the form of tradition and scripture. We collectively as well as individually grow towards Him. Genesis is available to the everyone, but it’s meaning is revealed through the grace of the Holy Spirit. In our state of ignorance it can be difficult to discern if what we think is truth or some delusion. That is one of the reasons why we require the Church, established by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit; we are all in this together.

God is Immoveable and yet He walks with us. He is right here and now, He knows why we talk about Him in the third person; so we are not being rude, although it would be better to pray. He is Immoveable because He is the Source of all movement. He is with us as loving Father, interested in our happiness, but on the scale of eternity. The medicine can be difficult to take sometimes.

The majority of people I know are Jews. Some are secular; many see Genesis as an important but fanciful story that binds them together as a community which has existed and thrived through the millennia. Many understand it as do Christians and Muslims.

Genesis reveals the truth of the beginnings of our relationship with God. I would recommend its contemplation with the Catechism, at least, on hand for guidance.
 
When I was small I had, as part of a chemistry set, round plastic pieces of different sizes and colours with parts that fit into each other, representing atoms that combined to form molecules - a very effective teaching device to understand the structure of the world. At that point the structure of DNA had been discovered. Later I would learn how complex organic molecules (enzymes) have a shape that electromagnetically brings other molecules into position so as to dramatically increase the probability of a particular chemical reaction occurring. This in along with all the intricately complex series of events that occur in DNA replication and its central role in protein synthesis. I recall there also being pictures of what were the tiny solar systems that constituted atoms. In the microcosm were to be found the same patterns seen in the macrocosm. An older concept but valuable nontheless in understanding how matter works.

This rambling discourse is to illustrate how the mind works as we reach out within the world around us to intellectually capture its structure and behaviour. We use simple concepts derived from our every-day perceptual, mostly visual, experience. But, all this gets very complex, very quickly as we peer deeper into the nature of matter. We have to devise new ways to explain our observations. Sometimes something very confusing and complex is revealed to be so simple: the movement of the planets, the elusive shape of benzene (the snake biting its tail in a dream), as well as the double helix.

How are we to speak about God and creation? He has to reveal Himself, or we are lost. He has established a historical dialogue with humanity through His church in the form of tradition and scripture. We collectively as well as individually grow towards Him. Genesis is available to the everyone, but it’s meaning is revealed through the grace of the Holy Spirit. In our state of ignorance it can be difficult to discern if what we think is truth or some delusion. That is one of the reasons why we require the Church, established by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit; we are all in this together.

God is Immoveable and yet He walks with us. He is right here and now, He knows why we talk about Him in the third person; so we are not being rude, although it would be better to pray. He is Immoveable because He is the Source of all movement. He is with us as loving Father, interested in our happiness, but on the scale of eternity. The medicine can be difficult to take sometimes.

The majority of people I know are Jews. Some are secular; many see Genesis as an important but fanciful story that binds them together as a community which has existed and thrived through the millennia. Many understand it as do Christians and Muslims.

Genesis reveals the truth of the beginnings of our relationship with God. I would recommend its contemplation with the Catechism, at least, on hand for guidance.
If I look at the definition of the word move or moving, I see that since God was moving and walking around in a garden on earth thousands of years before Christ, and this was testified to, then the conclusion that I get is that He was moving and therefore He is not immovable.
 
If I look at the definition of the word move or moving, I see that since God was moving and walking around in a garden on earth thousands of years before Christ, and this was testified to, then the conclusion that I get is that He was moving and therefore He is not immovable.
God walks with us here and now. He is immoveable as the Cause of the world around us, and within it, we who perceive, think, feel and are free to act within its bounds. He does not move; we are connected always here and now. The moment is always changing and yet the same.
 
God walks with us here and now. He is immoveable as the Cause of the world around us, and within it, we who perceive, think, feel and are free to act within its bounds. He does not move; we are connected always here and now. The moment is always changing and yet the same.
In Genesis God was walking around on earth in a garden.
He was moving around according to the witnesses.
God also responds to the prayers of the priest at the Mass. When the priest says these prayers, God moves to change the substance of the Bread and Wine. He is also moved by the prayers of the faithful. When a person gains an indulgence and applies it to a soul in purgatory, God lessens the punishment in Purgatory.
If you believe that God responds to our prayers, then by the definition of the word moves, He is not immovable.
 
God moves and can do so in response to our needs and prayers. He is the mover as we are in our own finite way. As part of creation we can be moved, except for what is truly ours to give - our will. As the Cause of all creation, God cannot be moved.

In a different sense of the word, I can be moved to feel pity by a sad story. God is omniscient, infinitely compassionate; He cannot be moved from one state to another. He is Love.
 
I think the point of this thread is to prompt Christians to dispense with metaphorical language as in the phrase “living God” and to be more precise. It could also be an attempt to discuss the definition of “life”, which would be pretty tricky since even biologists can’t seem to agree on the matter. (For example, biologists don’t always agree on whether or not a given virus is alive.)
 
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