God cannot explain the origin of life

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many Roman Catholics will tell you that God is immovable. If God were immovable, how could He be walking around in a garden? Perhaps God is not immovable after all.
Are you thinking, perhaps, of ‘immutable’?

(On the other hand, are the ‘many Roman Catholics’ also philosophers, and are misconstruing Aristotle’s use of ‘motion’ <=> ‘change’?)

I can’t think of a single time I’ve ever heard a Catholic say, “God is immovable”… 🤷
 
I simply say that there is no need for God at the Big Band point since everything can comes from nowhere.
Do we have any examples, or any empirical evidence, for the statement that, in a naturally-occurring context, “something can come from nothing”? No.
I am saying that there are three systems of thoughts agnostic, atheist and theist where agnostic system is the most fair one unless you are convinced by a strong fact. This is true because in other two systems of thoughts one (atheist) can ask where God got infinite power from whereas in another one (theist) one can ask where all this stuff came from.
So… a system of thought is ‘not fair’ because it can ask a question?
 
If I look at the definition of the word move or moving, I see that since God was moving and walking around in a garden on earth thousands of years before Christ, and this was testified to, then the conclusion that I get is that He was moving and therefore He is not immovable.
You are misunderstanding the term immovable, it does not mean unable to move it means that God cannot be moved by any outside force. The word that you are thinking of is immobile.
 
You are misunderstanding the term immovable, it does not mean unable to move it means that God cannot be moved by any outside force. The word that you are thinking of is immobile.
The “unmoved mover”, as it were. Yet, it’s important to understand what’s meant by ‘motion’ in that context… 😉
 
I think the point of this thread is to prompt Christians to dispense with metaphorical language as in the phrase “living God” and to be more precise. It could also be an attempt to discuss the definition of “life”, which would be pretty tricky since even biologists can’t seem to agree on the matter. (For example, biologists don’t always agree on whether or not a given virus is alive.)
As you grow in your relationship with God, you will know what it means. All the precision in defining existence, being, life, love, whatever, will mean nothing if you don’t know whom it is talking about. Unless you give, you don’t know love.
 
Do we have any examples, or any empirical evidence, for the statement that, in a naturally-occurring context, “something can come from nothing”? No.
Yes, virtual particle are constantly produced and annihilated in space. You can read more about it here.
So… a system of thought is ‘not fair’ because it can ask a question?
No, because it cannot answer the question.
 
Yes, virtual particle are constantly produced and annihilated in space. You can read more about it here.
Note that for a virtual particle to exist there must be a corresponding real particle so this does not fit the definition of something from nothing. Nice try though.
 
Note that for a virtual particle to exist there must be a corresponding real particle so this does not fit the definition of something from nothing. Nice try though.
You can have virtual particle in vacuum too. That is how physicists believe in big bang as a quantum fluctuation.
 
Well here is the issue, we simply have a has been mentioned by a zillion posters a different concept of God. God is not life in any form that would ve subject to your reasoning.
As you say, it has been mentioned before on this thread. I dealt with it in post #123. If God is not alive in the usual sense, then we need to use a different word instead, to avoid the error of equivocation. I proposed “doshef”. The thread title then becomes: “God cannot explain the origin of doshef”, and some verses of the Bible will need to be rewritten to read “doshef” instead of “living”.

Merely using a different word does not eliminate the logical problem: God cannot originate one of the properties He already possesses.
On the flip side to your version of God then He clearly did not create the universe IF you are right.
God cannot have created everything, since God did not create Himself. At most He can only have created everything except Himself. It also depends on what definition if “universe” we are using. In philosophical discussions I prefer to use “All That Exists” (ATE) as the definition of the universe. Obviously if an eternal God exists, then the ATE universe is also eternal and hence has no origin/creation.
So I would pressume there are at least 30 strange versions of buddhism hidden somewhere in the world that agree with the general tennants.
A lot more than 30. We’ve had 500 more years to come up with strange sub-sects than Christians. 🙂

s/tennants/tenets.

rossum
 
You are misunderstanding the term immovable, it does not mean unable to move it means that God cannot be moved by any outside force. The word that you are thinking of is immobile.
God is unable to move for different reasons. God is omnipresent, so He cannot move from A to B. He cannot leave A because He is always present at A. He cannot move to B because He is already at B and so can never arrive. He can never leave anywhere and He can never arrive anywhere. Movement is impossible for Him.

A lot of the properties assigned to God have this effect: each property prevents God doing something. Omniscience prevents Him ever learning something new for example.

$0.02

rossum
 
A fluctuation of what? Please elaborate.
A fluctuation in the zero energy state of the continuum:

There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.

– Hawking, A Brief History of Time

The material universe is just a very complex arrangement of zero energy.

rossum
 
I can’t think of a single time I’ve ever heard a Catholic say, “God is immovable”… 🤷
Have you read St. Catherine of Siena, the Dialog, A treatise of Discretion? :”I am your God, immovable, who am not an Acceptor of persons, but of holy desire.”
Also see:
Quotable Catholic Mystics and Contemplatives
Edited by Dave Armstrong
page 55.
isbn 978-312-15327-1
 
God is unable to move for different reasons. God is omnipresent, so He cannot move from A to B. He cannot leave A because He is always present at A. He cannot move to B because He is already at B and so can never arrive. He can never leave anywhere and He can never arrive anywhere. Movement is impossible for Him.
According to the Nicene Creed, God came down from heaven and became man. Also, God responds to our prayers. BTW, generally speaking, do Buddhists believe in God or are many Buddhists agnostics? Who is God, according to Buddhist belief?
 
A fluctuation in the zero energy state of the continuum:

There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.

– Hawking, A Brief History of Time

The material universe is just a very complex arrangement of zero energy.

rossum
Hawking, and I don’t know if this would be his final word on the subject, goes to a lot of trouble to demonstrate that that his conclusion, which in fact constitutes the premise that the universe is in balance, is correct.

At any rate, I think most of us would concur that yes, it is balanced and no new energy is apparently being added to the system; and if it were, it would probably be balanced. Such is the order that faith teaches is present in the universe.

Whatever the “continuum” would be, it would allow for quantum fluctuations. It would be “something”, in other words. Things don’t appear all by themselves without some cause. The ultimate Cause is God.

Whatever else this may mean to you, whether the sum is zero or not, you and I exist. The Devil’s argument would be to stub your toe and try pretend it doesn’t hurt. It will hurt; trust me on that one.
 
. . . to avoid the error of equivocation. I proposed “doshef”. . . Merely using a different word does not eliminate the logical problem: God cannot originate one of the properties He already possesses. God cannot have created everything, since God did not create Himself. At most He can only have created everything except Himself. It also depends on what definition if “universe” we are using. In philosophical discussions I prefer to use “All That Exists” (ATE) as the definition of the universe. Obviously if an eternal God exists, then the ATE universe is also eternal and hence has no origin/creation . . .
Everything in the universe is transient. It is always in flux. There is nothing eternal about the world since it will come to some end just as it began.

But you construct the concept of ATE that includes the the universe and God. Then go on to claim that this new entity is eternal. I would concur if by ATE, you are referring to the Beatific Vision.
 
Yes, virtual particle are constantly produced and annihilated in space. You can read more about it here.
Yet, energy and momentum are conserved – in other words, it’s not that they pop out “from nothing” or go “to nothing”: there is energy before and after their appearance.

It’s a nice attempt, but this argument fails: ‘ex nihilo’ means “from nothing”, not “from pre-existing energy”. The challenge remains: no creation comes from nothing in natural systems. I don’t suppose you have a better example that stands up to scrutiny, do you?
 
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