God created evil

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Knowing how someone will act is not the same as being responsible for, or the cause of, their actions.

Indeed in order to create beings capable of love, those being had to have the free will in order to be capable of love. God did not create us to be like robots, or like slaves to His will. The very nature of our loving God meant that He gave us the gift of free will as an act of love, even knowing that many would turn against Him.
 
Bahman said:
That is the problem I exactly have. We have to say good bye to free will once we accept that God is cognitively open to creation/first cause.
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Is that your justification for making poor decisions?

The real problem with justifying our poor decisions is that it opens the door to more and more with limitless boundaries, not of which are ever fulfilling. In fact, fulfillment declines even for the most natural of things.
 
Bahman said:
  1. God has omniscience
  2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
  3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
  4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
  5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
  6. God created evil
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Do you also hold that light creates darkness?
 
Bahman said:
An agent is cognitively open to a system when it knows how the system functions under every circumstances.

Let me give you a couple of examples:
  1. You are cognitively open to a program language since you know how it functions
  2. We are cognitively open to God since God knows how we perform our decision in every given situations
  3. We are not cognitively open to each other (third person view) since we don’t know how other people perform their decision in every given situations
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In the practical world, being “cognitively open” would mean being open to all possibilities with the realization that not all possibilities would be possible.

Personally, I do not see how a rational person could be cognitively open and then be restricted to [presumed accurate] knowledge of functions under every circumstance. That could be somewhat close to a Catch-22.

What sparked my laugher was that humans do not have to have omniscience in order to create evil. Stinky diapers came to mind. However, looking at the evil problem from the baby’s position will take both courage and time. …
 
Brendan_64 said:
Knowing how someone will act is not the same as being responsible for, or the cause of, their actions.

Indeed in order to create beings capable of love, those being had to have the free will in order to be capable of love. God did not create us to be like robots, or like slaves to His will. The very nature of our loving God meant that He gave us the gift of free will as an act of love, even knowing that many would turn against Him.
Click to expand...
Being cognitively open to a system is more than knowing what system does, it is about knowing how system functions under every circumstances. In another word, our behaviours are outcome of our mental states, current situation, our past experiences which is reflected in our mental states. We are not cognitively open to every situation when a decision is involved hence we have to spend time thinking about different issues, recalling past experience to make a feel of situation, then we become cognitively open to situation, meaning we can decide about the topics on hand.

Love itself has some functioning and carry some feeling. We cannot be cognitively open to love since otherwise it loses its sense of feeling and that is why love is different from reasoning.
 
Catolico65 said:
Is that your justification for making poor decisions?

The real problem with justifying our poor decisions is that it opens the door to more and more with limitless boundaries, not of which are ever fulfilling. In fact, fulfillment declines even for the most natural of things.
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What is the meaning of free will when God is cognitively open to it? That is one of the target of this thread.
 
Bahman said:
Being cognitively open to a system is more than knowing what system does, it is about knowing how system functions under every circumstances. In another word, our behaviours are outcome of our mental states, current situation, our past experiences which is reflected in our mental states. We are not cognitively open to every situation when a decision is involved hence we have to spend time thinking about different issues, recalling past experience to make a feel of situation, then we become cognitively open to situation, meaning we can decide about the topics on hand.

Love itself has some functioning and carry some feeling. We cannot be cognitively open to love since otherwise it loses its sense of feeling and that is why love is different from reasoning.
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Bahman, how many times do you need to mention “cognitively open”?

What on Earth has that post got anything to do with the fact that god, who is Love, created us us out of love and gave us free-will and freedom as an act of love?

God gave us freedom to act according our will. Our actions are not pre-destined, yet God knows what those actions will be. Are you trying to argue that because God created us and knows how we will act, means that there is, in reality, only one pathway open to us, a pathway that God has programmed into us? Because that is simply not the case.

Yes God knows how we will act, but at the same time how we will act has not yet been determined, that is down to the choices we make. We should not try to apply human logic to God, because our flawed human understanding cannot fathom how God can know about something that has not yet happened and has not been pre-determined.

We are not robots programmed by God to act in a certain way. Our brains are not CPUs and God is not a computer programmer.
 
Bahman said:
  1. God has omniscience
  2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
  3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
  4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
  5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
  6. God created evil
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I think there is some kind of flaw in logic between 5 and 6, but I don’t have enough on logic to articulate exactly what the flaw is.

I know God created Satan, and Satan sinned, chose evil. I don’t think it necessarily follows that God created sin, though.
 
oldcelt said:
But God created him and with omniscience. {in the Christian model}…God is culpable.
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I put “God is culpable” in bold because I am intensely curious about a word which refers to “blame”.

May I respectfully ask – What exactly, is God culpable of? When He created angels? When He created humans? Those are trick questions.

It seems to this cranky granny that humans could be something similar to angels with decomposing anatomies. :rolleyes:
 
oldcelt said:
But God created him and with omniscience. {in the Christian model}…God is culpable.
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No!

God did not decide what path Lucifer would take. The path Lucifer chose was not pre-determined. Lucifer, was given free-will and chose to reject God. The path Lucifer chose was not determined, or planned, by God.

The fact that God is omniscient, even of things that are not pre-determined or fixed, is a mystery and something outside of our flawed human logic.

God is not culpable for the choices you make in your life, you are. The same applies to the choices made by Lucifer.
 
Bahman said:
That is the problem I exactly have. We have to say good bye to free will once we accept that God is cognitively open to creation/first cause.
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If you say goodbye to free will you also say goodbye to your power to choose the best explanation. Bad luck! Your theory is self-destructive. 🙂
 
Brendan_64 said:
No!

God did not decide what path Lucifer would take. The path Lucifer chose was not pre-determined. Lucifer, was given free-will and chose to reject God. The path Lucifer chose was not determined, or planned, by God.

The fact that God is omniscient, even of things that are not pre-determined or fixed, is a mystery and something outside of our flawed human logic.

God is not culpable for the choices you make in your life, you are. The same applies to the choices made by Lucifer.
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So he gets a free pass. Good thing he is not facing a US criminal court. Such foreknowledge of criminal activity brings with it responsibility. There is simply no escaping that in the real world.

But, of course, there’s always the fall back position of “It’s a mystery.” I’d like to know how many times my parents, priests and nuns told me that.
 
oldcelt said:
So he gets a free pass. Good thing he is not facing a US criminal court. Such foreknowledge of criminal activity brings with it responsibility. There is simply no escaping that in the real world.

But, of course, there’s always the fall back position of “It’s a mystery.” I’d like to know how many times my parents, priests and nuns told me that.
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I’d like to know how you know what God knows! 😉
 
oldcelt said:
So he gets a free pass. Good thing he is not facing a US criminal court. Such foreknowledge of criminal activity brings with it responsibility. There is simply no escaping that in the real world.
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God is not of this world, nor is he answerable to the rules of this world. He is answerable to nobody.

You fail to grasp the concept that events are not predestined by God. When a being has free-will there is are infinite courses of events that may happen depending on the choices the person has yet to make. God does not interfere in the free choice of humans, nor does he program us to make certain choices. Infinite amounts of choices can be made, how can God be responsible for the choice a person makes when that choice is not pre-destined by God, and the possible outcomes are practically infinite.
oldcelt said:
But, of course, there’s always the fall back position of “It’s a mystery.” I’d like to know how many times my parents, priests and nuns told me that.
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Ah, a disgruntled ex-Catholic? I’ve been there, done that, and in the end saw sense.
 
Brendan_64 said:
God is not of this world, nor is he answerable to the rules of this world. He is answerable to nobody.

You fail to grasp the concept that events are not predestined by God. When a being has free-will there is are infinite courses of events that may happen depending on the choices the person has yet to make. God does not interfere in the free choice of humans, nor does he program us to make certain choices. Infinite amounts of choices can be made, how can God be responsible for the choice a person makes when that choice is not pre-destined by God, and the possible outcomes are practically infinite.

Ah, a disgruntled ex-Catholic? I’ve been there, done that, and in the end saw sense.
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I grasp the concept quite nicely. As one who believes that god had nothing to do with the creation of man, I blame him for nothing, nor do I give any credit for the good things that I see. But under the Christian model, God knows in advance who will go to hell…that type of foreknowledge is a problem that cannot simply be written off as a mystery.

Your other statements are just rehashing of what you have been taught and can only be verified by what you’ve been taught.

BTW, I’m no longer disgruntled…haven’t been for some time. In fact, I am very much at peace since I found what I view to be the truth.
 
oldcelt said:
Your other statements are just rehashing of what you have been taught and can only be verified by what you’ve been taught.

BTW, I’m no longer disgruntled…haven’t been for some time. In fact, I am very much at peace since I found what I view to be the truth.
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Well at least I have something to verify my views by, other than simply verifying my views by my own opinion.
 
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