God created evil

[oldcelt]

Well at least I have something to verify my views by, other than simply verifying my views by my own opinion.

My “opinion” is based on many of the same sources as yours. I just arrived at a different set of conclusions.

 

[Brendan_64]

My “opinion” is based on many of the same sources as yours. I just arrived at a different set of conclusions.

So the authority for your views are your own conclusions. It must be nice to be able to create your own individual version of the Truth.

 

[Catolico65]

I grasp the concept quite nicely. As one who believes that god had nothing to do with the creation of man, I blame him for nothing, nor do I give any credit for the good things that I see. But under the Christian model, God knows in advance who will go to hell…that type of foreknowledge is a problem that cannot simply be written off as a mystery.

Your other statements are just rehashing of what you have been taught and can only be verified by what you’ve been taught.

BTW, I’m no longer disgruntled…haven’t been for some time. In fact, I am very much at peace since I found what I view to be the truth.

Very theoretical and all that but the reality is you like all of us have learned there are consequences to our actions. In fact, you just like all of us make conscious decisions between right and wrong, and suffer the benefits or consequence. For example, you don’t run red lights and drink and drive because you don’t want to go to jail. You could of course actually pop open a cold one and run a red light but you won’t. You are exercising you free will and like everyone do it constantly.

Judgment is no different when you die. Fortunately, all our poor decisions can be absolved relatively simply by accepting the truth, which honestly shouldn’t be difficult to grasp given that we practice exercising our free will every day by making decisions and thus are quite aware of right and wrong and the consequences.

 

[oldcelt]

So the authority for your views are your own conclusions. It must be nice to be able to create your own individual version of the Truth.

Believe it or not, you’ve done the same thing…so does everyone else except for those in blind obedience. The rest of us look at the writings, the teachings, the traditions, and draw our own conclusions about their veracity. You reached one conclusion, I reached another.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

What is light? and what is darkness?

What do you mean by “is”?

I can play word games too.

 

[Brendan_64]

Believe it or not, you’ve done the same thing…so does everyone else except for those in blind obedience. The rest of us look at the writings, the teachings, the traditions, and draw our own conclusions about their veracity. You reached one conclusion, I reached another.

I look to the Teaching of the Church and submit to that. That is my authority, not my own conclusions. As Catholics, that is what we are obliged to do.

 

[grannymh]

I grasp the concept quite nicely. As one who believes that god had nothing to do with the creation of man, I blame him for nothing, nor do I give any credit for the good things that I see. But under the Christian model, God knows in advance who will go to hell…that type of foreknowledge is a problem that cannot simply be written off as a mystery.

Your other statements are just rehashing of what you have been taught and can only be verified by what you’ve been taught.

BTW, I’m no longer disgruntled…haven’t been for some time. In fact, I am very much at peace since I found what I view to be the truth.

It is unlikely that I will ever change someone’s personal position about the Creator. However, I can still post for the reader who is curious.

Curious about the Creator’s position when an individual person first chooses the state of Mortal Sin. (CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889) Under the Catholic model, God does not abandon that individual to the fate of hell. Instead, God continues to call that person back into the friendship relationship with Himself, which is known as the state of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) In the Catholic Church, God does not whisper. Via the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation, God SHOUTS His merciful invitation to the sinner to return to the Creator, to repent and seek forgiveness. (CCC, Contents, The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, page viii)

The God Shepherd has never said no to the sorrowful sinner who sincerely desires forgiveness.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[oldcelt]

Very theoretical and all that but the reality is you like all of us have learned there are consequences to our actions. In fact, you just like all of us make conscious decisions between right and wrong, and suffer the benefits or consequence. For example, you don’t run red lights and drink and drive because you don’t want to go to jail. You could of course actually pop open a cold one and run a red light but you won’t. You are exercising you free will and like everyone do it constantly.

Judgment is no different when you die. Fortunately, all our poor decisions can be absolved relatively simply by accepting the truth, which honestly shouldn’t be difficult to grasp given that we practice exercising our free will every day by making decisions and thus are quite aware of right and wrong and the consequences.

I absolutely agree with your first paragraph. All of these actions/consequences are a result of human cultural evolution.

The second paragraph is a matter of faith that I know longer hold. It was a difficult choice after nearly 50 years, but it was the only one I could reach in good conscience.

 

[Catolico65]

What is the meaning of free will when God is cognitively open to it? That is one of the target of this thread.

As I pointed out to another poster why do you claim there is no free will yet exercise your free will throughout the day, choosing to do things that affect you in a positive or negative way?

If there were no free will you would not be concerned with the outcome of your actions, but yet you are very much concerned, just like everyone else.

Interestingly, why is it commonplace that people in jail feel like they had no choice in what they were doing because they felt trapped, in other words their actions were predetermined? Those are the real consequences of convincing oneself that everything is predestined. Even if people won’t ackonwledge free will most everyone puts it into practice everyday by making decisions that benefit them or keep them out of trouble.

 

[oldcelt]

It is unlikely that I will ever change someone’s personal position about the Creator. However, I can still post for the reader who is curious.

Curious about the Creator’s position when an individual person first chooses the state of Mortal Sin. (CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889) Under the Catholic model, God does not abandon that individual to the fate of hell. Instead, God continues to call that person back into the friendship relationship with Himself, which is known as the state of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898) In the Catholic Church, God does not whisper. Via the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation, God SHOUTS His merciful invitation to the sinner to return to the Creator, to repent and seek forgiveness. (CCC, Contents, The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, page viii)

The God Shepherd has never said no to the sorrowful sinner who sincerely desires forgiveness.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

Thank you granny. BTW, I have all the major books related to Catholicism, including an ol Baltimore, a 1939 Penitent’s guide, etc.

 

[Catolico65]

I absolutely agree with your first paragraph. All of these actions/consequences are a result of human cultural evolution.

If it were just “human cultural evolution” and you were aware of it, ie you could in theory decide it is no longer relevant to you because it is just an external norm exercised by society, yet that does not stop you about worrying like the rest of us about the consequences of our decisions. Therefore your repeated daily actions of decision making prove it is not “human cultural evolution” but something else.

On the other hand, when you no longer are really concerned with the consequences of your actions than you can say your choices are predetermined. But you can’t.

 

[Bahman]

We are not robots programmed by God to act in a certain way. Our brains are not CPUs and God is not a computer programmer.

Could you please illustrate how this is possible? In another word, how God could know what free will is, meaning to know the reason why one exactly perform one action, at the same time granting us freedom. More clearly, there should be a set of psychological laws which are at charge and control our behaviour for two strong reasons, first God could not know the behaviour of system otherwise, second we could act since causality requires laws otherwise our decision is based on random variables.

 

[Bahman]

Are we cognitively open to either light or dark?

All we know is that we are cognitively closed to the topics we do question them. Questioning the current state knowledge, call it truth, is golden key for opening the the door of knowledge which lead to another aspect of truth, causing doubt. This is crucial step in understanding the absolute truth, so called light which oppose to another state truth so called darkness. We were still worshipping Sun as God if we haven’t question its imaginary authority.

 

[Bahman]

If you say goodbye to free will you also say goodbye to your power to choose the best explanation. Bad luck! Your theory is self-destructive.

Nah, I in fact don’t have any theory, until then I have to ask many questions. The new question that is related to this topic is as following. I try to make the question based on new fact, namely we have free will: How God could possibly create us with free will, meaning that it could not be cognitively open to it -since otherwise we just perform actions based on a system of laws- at the same time being able to create us.

There are three arguments as following:

1. God understands the creation
2. Understanding requires a set laws that system functions upon it (read cognitively open)
3. Our actions are based on these laws
4. Free will is an illusion since our actions are based on a set of hidden laws
5. Free will is real
6. There is no set of law that define free will
7. God is cognitively closed to free will
8. God cannot create a being which is cognitively close to it
9. God cannot create a being with free will (unless you question (4))
10. Causality requires a system of laws
11. Free will does not submit to any law since otherwise it is an illusion
12. Free will is illusion since it could not cause anything

 

[tonyrey]

Nah, I in fact don’t have any theory, until then I have to ask many questions. The new question that is related to this topic is as following. I try to make the question based on new fact, namely we have free will: How God could possibly create us with free will, meaning that it could not be cognitively open to it -since otherwise we just perform actions based on a system of laws- at the same time being able to create us.

There are three arguments as following:

1. God understands the creation
2. Understanding requires a set laws that system functions upon it (read cognitively open)
3. Our actions are based on these laws
4. Free will is an illusion since our actions are based on a set of hidden laws
5. Free will is real
6. There is no set of law that define free will
7. God is cognitively closed to free will
8. God cannot create a being which is cognitively close to it
9. God cannot create a being with free will (unless you question (4))
10. Causality requires a system of laws
11. Free will does not submit to any law since otherwise it is an illusion
12. Free will is illusion since it could not cause anything

Why don’t you face the facts?

If you say goodbye to free will you also say goodbye to your power to choose the best explanation.

In other words your argument amounts to slitting your intellectual throat…

 

[grannymh]

1. God has omniscience
2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
6. God created evil

Point 6) God created evil

…is strangely interesting because it omits any sound reference to the reality of the pinnacle of creation. In fact, the main reality in point 6) is the reality that God exists…without considering where or how evil actually exists.

Note: Referring to “we” is a nod in the direction of humanity – but what is needed for a good discussion is an actual reference or explanation of the reality of human nature.

 

[Bahman]

Why don’t you face the facts?

If you say goodbye to free will you also say goodbye to your power to choose the best explanation.

In other words your argument amounts to slitting your intellectual throat…

I tried to follow your argument and you apparently lost me. You asked me to consider free will as a fact and I wrote an argument based on this fact as following:

1. Free will is real
2. There is no set of law that define free will
3. God is cognitively closed to free will
4. God cannot create a being which is cognitively close to it
5. God cannot create a being with free will (unless you question (4))

Could you please tell me what is wrong with this argument.

 

[Bahman]

Point 6) God created evil

…is strangely interesting because it omits any sound reference to the reality of the pinnacle of creation. In fact, the main reality in point 6) is the reality that God exists…without considering where or how evil actually exists.

Note: Referring to “we” is a nod in the direction of humanity – but what is needed for a good discussion is an actual reference or explanation of the reality of human nature.

I didn’t get your point why point 6) explain the reality that God exist. Could you please elaborate?

 

[tonyrey]

I tried to follow your argument and you apparently lost me. You asked me to consider free will as a fact and I wrote an argument based on this fact as following:

1. Free will is real
2. There is no set of law that define free will
3. God is cognitively closed to free will
4. God cannot create a being which is cognitively close to it
5. God cannot create a being with free will (unless you question (4))

Could you please tell me what is wrong with this argument.

1. Free will is indefinable because it is a divine gift of creative power which enables us to defy God’s Will.
2. God is not cognitively closed to free will because it is an aspect of His omnipotence.
3. & 5) God has created beings like us and angels in His image and likeness.

**Without free will it would be impossible to be reasonable because we wouldn’t be able to reach our own conclusions.
**

 

[Brendan_64]

Could you please illustrate how this is possible? In another word, how God could know what free will is, meaning to know the reason why one exactly perform one action, at the same time granting us freedom.

Because he is not bound by the laws that we are.

More clearly, there should be a set of psychological laws which are at charge and control our behaviour for two strong reasons, first God could not know the behaviour of system otherwise, second we could act since causality requires laws otherwise our decision is based on random variables.

God is not bound by laws. God is the creator of laws, there is nothing above God. he is not subject to nay laws, natural, psychological or otherwise.