God created evil

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Only if you worship that god. Other than that it’s just conversation.
 
Bahman said:
I didn’t get your point why point 6) explain the reality that God exist. Could you please elaborate?
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FYI

I am in the midst of putting together a reply about points 1) through 6).
However, I need to check out some ideas off line – which is not immediately possible. Just wanted to let you know that I will eventually reply.

In addition, this is about to be me. :snowing:
 
Bahman said:
  1. God has omniscience
  2. God is cognitively open to free will (since otherwise couldn’t create a being with free will)
  3. God knows the decision we perform in a situation as a result being cognitively open to free will and situation, in another word God is cognitively open to creation
  4. Creation was performed by first cause and God was cognitively open to first cause
  5. Evil exist and God was aware the source of evil in first cause since it was cognitively open to it
  6. God created evil
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Evil is not a thing created, but performed. It is an act, and adjective used to describe an act.
God made all things good then let his good creations choose to do Good or Evil.
God may have known it, but it’s not of his doing, but his allowing of it.

Quite different.
 
tonyrey said:
  1. Free will is indefinable because it is a divine gift of creative power which enables us to defy God’s Will.
  2. God is not cognitively closed to free will because it is an aspect of His omnipotence.
  3. & 5) God has created beings like us and angels in His image and likeness.
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Free will should be definable for God since otherwise God could not create a being with free will. Do you agree with this statement? From 3) I can realize that your answer is yes. That is however omniscience which allows God to be cognitively open to free will. Being cognitively open to an ability has its own price on the other side meaning that the free will is not free at all from God perspective since God clearly knows how free will functions under every circumstances. The fact that we are cognitively close to free will does not grant any intrinsic value to it since we know that we are not free anyway, since once we accept that free will is ability that one could be open to it then it is not free will at all. Simply, free will is a unique ability if and only if everybody including God are cognitively closed to it.

To conclude, free will and most importantly its freeness is a mysterious ability once we accept that everybody is close to it, once it is open then the freeness is an illusion.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Because he is not bound by the laws that we are.
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Do you mean that free will is also bounded by law, if it is so then free will is an illusion.
Brendan_64 said:
God is not bound by laws. God is the creator of laws, there is nothing above God. he is not subject to nay laws, natural, psychological or otherwise.
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I am not saying that God is bounded by law. My question is that are we bounded by laws? If yes free will is an illusion since there is a set law which dictates how an agent should act under a circumstances. Once you accept this set of laws does exist then we are not free. How is then responsible for our actions, whether you like it or not, that is God.
 
Cricket2 said:
To accuse God of creating evil is blasphemous.
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That just means that we don’t understand something. Saying that this act is blasphemous is escaping from reality. You need to provide a proof that why an argument is wrong and that open us to another realm, once we close our mind to questions then we are chained since that is only absolute truth that can set us free and that is not possible unless you ask questions.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Evil is not a thing created, but performed. It is an act, and adjective used to describe an act.
God made all things good then let his good creations choose to do Good or Evil.
God may have known it, but it’s not of his doing, but his allowing of it.

Quite different.
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I understand your point bu that doesn’t resolve the problem. The main question is whether God is cognitively open to creation? You answer is yes. This means that God knew that one person should perform a good or bad action on a situation as a result of being cognitively open to the person and the situation. This means that we solely function based on how we are designed (read basic laws of our natures), our experiences and our understanding of the situations. In another word, it is not under person power to perform good or bad since the power so called free will, as we define it, is an illusion once we accept that God is cognitively open to it. In another word a person should perform one and only one action on a situation since we just function.
 
Bahman said:
Free will should be definable for God since otherwise God could not create a being with free will. Do you agree with this statement?
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As a side issue,
you are on the right track with your observation that there is a “freedom” relationship between the Creator and His human creature.

God is omniscient because He enjoys the freedom of knowing all. God is super-natural; therefore, His power to know is way beyond our limited human natural intellective powers which depend on our being cognitively open. Being super-natural, God is not limited by our natural space and time in which we can eventually become “open” cognitively. Since God is not limited by our human decomposing anatomy, all at once, simultaneously, God infinitely knows. Omniscience can be described as freedom from limits to knowledge.

However, what may be blocking discussion about human freedom is that what is being overlooked is the fact that one’s human “will” naturally seeks the greatest good. This humanly “seeking the greatest good” flows from the Catholic teaching that our very self is in the image of God because of our immortal rational spiritual soul. Being in the image of God does not mean we are omniscient. Being in the image of God does mean that we are called to share in God’s Divine life on planet earth and in heaven’s eternal joy.

God does not need human will, because God already is the Greatest Good according to Catholic teachings. We humans need our will to seek our ultimate destiny as Persons. Our freedom includes our opportunities to choose between “good” and “apparent good”.
 
Bahman said:
I don’t know, maybe it was unavoidable.
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I was just thinking here about how pain in our lives is sometimes not only purposed but gives us good results, e.g. running 5 miles is hard but we do it for good purposes. We cannot know the mind of God or His plan since we are babes in the cosmic woods but I wonder if He uses pain in our existence to “train” us to understand Love.

Our lives and this universe are only temporary so whatever “happens in this cosmos, stays in this cosmos.” We don’t take this pain with us.
 
Bahman said:
Free will should be definable for God since otherwise God could not create a being with free will. Do you agree with this statement? From 3) I can realize that your answer is yes.
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No! God and His attributes are infinite and undefinable.
That is however omniscience which allows God to be cognitively open to free will. Being cognitively open to an ability has its own price on the other side meaning that the free will is not free at all from God perspective since God clearly knows how free will functions under every circumstances. The fact that we are cognitively close to free will does not grant any intrinsic value to it since we know that we are not free anyway, since once we accept that free will is ability that one could be open to it then it is not free will at all. Simply, free will is a unique ability if and only if everybody including God are cognitively closed to it.
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I’m sorry but I don’t understand this argument.
To conclude, free will and most importantly its freeness is a mysterious ability once we accept that everybody is close to it, once it is open then the freeness is an illusion.
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If you mean that we cannot understand how free will functions I agree with you. It is a mystery because it is a divine gift.
 
grannymh said:
As a side issue,
you are on the right track with your observation that there is a “freedom” relationship between the Creator and His human creature.

God is omniscient because He enjoys the freedom of knowing all. God is super-natural; therefore, His power to know is way beyond our limited human natural intellective powers which depend on our being cognitively open. Being super-natural, God is not limited by our natural space and time in which we can eventually become “open” cognitively. Since God is not limited by our human decomposing anatomy, all at once, simultaneously, God infinitely knows. Omniscience can be described as freedom from limits to knowledge.

However, what may be blocking discussion about human freedom is that what is being overlooked is the fact that one’s human “will” naturally seeks the greatest good. This humanly “seeking the greatest good” flows from the Catholic teaching that our very self is in the image of God because of our immortal rational spiritual soul. Being in the image of God does not mean we are omniscient. Being in the image of God does mean that we are called to share in God’s Divine life on planet earth and in heaven’s eternal joy.

God does not need human will, because God already is the Greatest Good according to Catholic teachings. We humans need our will to seek our ultimate destiny as Persons. Our freedom includes our opportunities to choose between “good” and “apparent good”.
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You exactly realize my problem. The following argument can be made:
  1. Creator should be cognitively open to free will
  2. The relation between creator and being should be based on freedom
  3. From (1), we know that free will should be definable in term of set of prepositions
  4. Consider the number of preposition to be N
  5. We cannot be free if N is finite
  6. From (2) and (5), we can conclude that the number of prepositions should be infinite
  7. From (6), we are cognitively closed to free will
That is the only way that I could make a reasonable argument which grant freedom to us and allows that creator to be cognitively open to creation at the same time. N has to be infinite with the price that we can never understand what free will is. In another word, freedom of action comes with a price called ignorance which is very ironic statement.
  1. We cannot be cognitively be open to decisions we perform
  2. In another hand number of concepts requires for performing a conscious decision is finite
  3. We are cognitively close to consciousness and concepts
This means that we are cognitively closed to the concepts like, pleasure, pain, love, hate, good, evil, etc.
 
tonyrey said:
No! God and His attributes are infinite and undefinable.
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I was not talking about God’s attributes. My question was whether God is open to our attributes, most importantly free will?
tonyrey said:
I’m sorry but I don’t understand this argument.
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The argument is along this line to show that free will is an illusion or it is logically impossible to create a being with free will. To elaborate one needs to show that free will is cognitively open to one and only one being, so called God. God has to be cognitively open to free will since otherwise it could not create it. Once we accept that God is cognitively open to free will then we know that from God perspective we are not free since for any situation there is only one and only one possible action. Hence free will is an illusion or creating a being with free will is logically impossible. Now suppose that one can prove/accept that free will exist knowing the fact that creating a being with free will is logically impossible. This means that the concept creation is false.
 
Bahman said:
I was not talking about God’s attributes. My question was whether God is open to our attributes, most importantly free will?

The argument is along this line to show that free will is an illusion or it is logically impossible to create a being with free will. To elaborate one needs to show that free will is cognitively open to one and only one being, so called God. God has to be cognitively open to free will since otherwise it could not create it. Once we accept that God is cognitively open to free will then we know that from God perspective we are not free since for any situation there is only one and only one possible action. Hence free will is an illusion or creating a being with free will is logically impossible. Now suppose that one can prove/accept that free will exist knowing the fact that creating a being with free will is logically impossible. This means that the concept creation is false.
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I do not claim to have insight into God’s attributes. What evidence do you have to support your statements?
If you mean that we cannot understand how free will functions I agree with you. It is a mystery because it is a divine gift.
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No response!
 
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