B
Bahman
Guest
Undefined means that decision about options is not made yet since otherwise there was no decision necessary to be made, one of course is aware of options available but that does not mean that state of mind is defined.
- Status
G
grannymh
Guest
I am sorry that I lost tract of the post which…
However, I would like to talk about your comment – “To be honest, I don’t have a clear answer to this dilemma but I am thinking about it.”
Simply thinking about something is a great beginning, because so many people start with any kind of an idea that pops into their head without taking the time to really think about all that is involved with any type of dilemma.
In other words, I would like us to go back to square one (post 1) and tackle the dilemma of free will with a completely fresh start.
We could start by listing who and what is involved in the dilemma. First there is us who are natural human beings and then there is God Who is a super-natural being. So that we have some kind of base for talking about God, I would like to use Catholic teachings about God. An extremely brief explanation about God is that He is a super-natural Divine Spirit without material/physical limitations. Omniscience is knowledge without limits. So the first point “God has omniscience” is true because the basic meaning of omniscience is knowledge without the limits (space & time) of our material world. In addition, omniscience is knowledge about everything. If there were something that God did not know, then that would be a limitation on His knowing everything. Now we have two reasons why “God has omniscience” is true.
Does this approach to God’s knowledge make sense to you? Is there something you would like to add?
C
Catolico65
Guest
Your effort at self deception is impressive in it’s illogical anti complexity.
B
Bahman
Guest
That is the only road open, do you have any other suggestion?**Bahman
The question which remains is that how God could create a being when it is cognitively close to it? You could argue that this is a possibility then you have to accept that God is able to create a being without knowing how it functions. **
By this logic you perhaps hope to refute the idea of intelligent design. Not convincing by a mile.
G
grannymh
Guest
We do not need such personal remarks…This is a good thread and I would like to see it kept open.
My personal position is that if we desire to be more productive, we need to wrap our minds around the Deductive method of reasoning.
C
Catolico65
Guest
I think you should read my posts and Bahmans responses before you defend his self deception.
Furthermore, his points are not logical and instead of acknowledging challenges he ignores them.
As far as deductive reasoning goes I have no problem as I am a graduate engineer, hence my comments.
G
grannymh
Guest
I am just a cranky (feminine of snarky) granny who does not appreciate a lack of charity.
I am also delighted to try out the Deductive method of reasoning. See post 102 about starting at square one using a completely fresh start…with the initial axioms. Since I have been out of the intellectual loop for decades, I do hope you will help me stay on track.
C
Catolico65
Guest
I very much agree with your deduction.I am also delighted to try out the Deductive method of reasoning. See post 102 about starting at square one using a completely fresh start…with the initial axioms. Since I have been out of the intellectual loop for decades, I do hope you will help me stay on track.
Nonetheless, with our friend Bahman I believe we need to start out slow and also establish some rules for discussion. Number one would be to acknowledge challenges of a logical theory and address them. At this point Bahman has been mostly unwilling to do this.
For example, his whole theory revolves around the concept that we have no part in the decisions we make but rather they are predetermined. I have clearly pointed out various examples of decision making that each and everyone makes every day that nullifies his theory yet instead of addressing them he adds supposed more complexity to his “theory”. He is clearly not interested in having a logical conversation with the goal of learning, hence my skepticism. I do wish him the best and the best is to always seek the truth, even if it is not convenient for us.
God bless.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
**Bahman
That is the only road open, do you have any other suggestion?**
Try to wrap your head around the idea that God might have created us in His own image.
If so, God is not an “it,” as you have referenced Him.
Science has already proven that the universe did not always exist. That means it was created, and created to produce over the long haul life such as our own.
That is an open road, unless you want to keep it closed.
That is the only road open, do you have any other suggestion?**
Try to wrap your head around the idea that God might have created us in His own image.
If so, God is not an “it,” as you have referenced Him.
Science has already proven that the universe did not always exist. That means it was created, and created to produce over the long haul life such as our own.
That is an open road, unless you want to keep it closed.
L
leon_fager
Guest
L
leon_fager
Guest
How could a loving God who is everywhere, all knowing and all powerful possibly create something so unlike his nature?
I
inocente
Guest
Your definition is incoherent: 1) Says P is cognitively open if P has knowledge of Q, but 2) says the exact opposite - P is cognitively open if Q has knowledge of P.
You are the only person in the world, according to google, bing and yahoo, to use the expression “cognitively open”, so I think you should try to find the correct English word rather than making something up.
Dude, this doesn’t make any sense at all. I can light a fire without knowing exactly what the flames will look like, and can cook a paella without knowing exactly how it will taste, so God can certainly create something without knowing exactly how it will perform in all circumstances. Who are you to tell God what He can’t do?
G
grannymh
Guest
Good to see you.
I was just about to send out the St. Bernard dog looking for you …with some brandy tied to his furry neck. Drank the brandy instead and then couldn’t remember what I was looking for. When in doubt, I used the dictionary and found out what “cognitively open” means. It means the opposite of brandy in the morning.
FYI
swissinfo.ch/eng/archive/Black_drink_saves_from_white_death.html?cid=7309338
S
Shannon9791
Guest
Just a quick question. Is omniscience a percursor to cognitive openness? It seems that it should be, but I don’t know that it’s being considered in such a way.
It also seems that NOT being cognitively open to a thing is exactly what makes free will possible. Since I do not and could not (I’m not omniscient) know every possible outcome of a system, I have to make a choice based on the knowledge I do have regarding it, then accept the outcome as dependant upon the choice I made.
Since God is omniscient, His knowledge of us as created beings is cognitively open (I’ve been reading philosophy for over 15 years now and this is the first time I’ve heard this expression used), meaning that even though God knows the choices we’re going to make, His being open to our making them allows us to make them freely.
Does that make sense or am I just reaching here?
It also seems that NOT being cognitively open to a thing is exactly what makes free will possible. Since I do not and could not (I’m not omniscient) know every possible outcome of a system, I have to make a choice based on the knowledge I do have regarding it, then accept the outcome as dependant upon the choice I made.
Since God is omniscient, His knowledge of us as created beings is cognitively open (I’ve been reading philosophy for over 15 years now and this is the first time I’ve heard this expression used), meaning that even though God knows the choices we’re going to make, His being open to our making them allows us to make them freely.
Does that make sense or am I just reaching here?
O
oldcelt
Guest
I’m afraid that no matter how everyone wants to slice it, knowledge brings responsibility. If ANYONE, deity or not, knows something terrible is about to occur and they do nothing, they are an accessory at the very least.
Imagine if someone had come forward and said that they knew the Newtown Massacre was going to happen but they figured those 20 children weren’t worth the bother of doing anything. Now, imagine that that person had created everyone involved and had known about it since the foundation of time. Created the victims, created the killer (evil), created the people who designed and built the guns and school, etc. etc.despite what they knew would happen.
The God I was taught by the nuns and the priests has a lot to explain to a lot of innocents.
That’s the main reason I moved on. I refuse to believe in a god that would be so uncaring.
A
Aloysium
Guest
This is not our final home. If it were it would not matter whether we lived at all because it will all be gone tomorrow.
We are eternal beings. Our home is with God.
This world is one of suffering and pain. I believe we chose to be here.
God did not create this; He allowed us to do so, and He offers us salvation through Jesus Christ.
We are eternal beings. Our home is with God.
This world is one of suffering and pain. I believe we chose to be here.
God did not create this; He allowed us to do so, and He offers us salvation through Jesus Christ.
D
davidv
Guest
God has nothing to explain. He put man in charge of the earth. Each and every moment some human fails to fulfill their responsibility to tend and protect the earth.
God cares enough to give us the capacity to love. By necessity this capacity must entail the ability to not love.
Since an uncaring God does not exist, I don’t being in an uncaring God either.
O
oldcelt
Guest
Really, I have never seen anything in Catholic/Christian theology that says that God did not create this life.Under Christian theology, He most certainly did create this, and knew the outcome in advance.
As for the choosing to be here, I also know of nothing in theology that says anything of the sort. Knowing what I know now I doubt that I would have accepted the invitation.
O
oldcelt
Guest
But he created it all knowing precisely what would happen, according to Christianity.
D
davidv
Guest
Agreed. And from the beginning, planned to redeem us from the mess we created.
- Status