God created evil

[Amandil]

Well, I know you’re going to think that I’m trying to avoid the question, but as far as I am concerned, there is no ‘Good’ in the Platonic sense. No ideal form to which we can refer. If you say that someone is good, then I suggest that that statement is meaningless unless we have a reference point. That is, in what respect is he good? A good father, a good driver, a good politician?

I’m sorry but this sorely begs the question.

It also proves my point regarding atheism. Without God man has no reference point for morality. You can assume or create a reference point from there and say that it is “good” to do to others what you would have others do to you. But what does that mean to someone who does not share your ideals? Nothing.

For us the reference point to good is that which is of its kind to the fullest. Surely God is the Ultimate Goodness because He IS what He is to the fullness of His Being. He is Being Itself.

Other particular goods are relative in quality to Him.

Thus a “good” father is what would be considered to be a father in the fullest sense.

A “good” driver would involve those qualities which pertain to driving to the fullest.

Thomas Aquinas described politics as “morality in action”. So a “good” politician would be one who puts such moral principles to action to the fullest.

Otherwise, the term becomes all-encompassing and that isn’t possible unless I was a Christian describing God. That is, someone with no negative attributes at all. The epitome of goodness. Goodness itself.

What’s wrong with that?

Now unless you have someone that is identical to that (I’m assuming that you don’t), then that person has to have some attributes that are not good. Let’s face it, none of us is perfect. So you quite literally have to be specific as to why that someone can be referred to as good (she gives her time for good causes, she’s kind to animals etc). Whilst at the same time, passing over her attributes that could not be described as good (she’s racist, she lies etc).

We don’t say that anyone is good in any absolute sense.

That said, there is a sense in which we can say something like: ‘I am trying to be a good father/husband/friend’. But even in that sense, we have a personal and very specific impression of what would constitute being a good father or husband. There is no ideal Good Father. Just a lot of attributes that each of us would list as a requirement to be considered such. Most of us just try to cover as many bases as possible.

That is where you’re wrong.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

from Charlemagne:

This is a very curious reading of what he said.

Good Evening Charlemagne: Actually Bradski understood me perfectly from what I am able to tell.

For a Catholic to say being a Catholic has nothing to do with being a good or a bad person is tantamount to saying Jesus Christ also does not matter, because after all Jesus showed us the Way to be good.

Saying that other people matter without regard to what they believe is not the same as saying that Jesus Christ doesn’t matter. It is the opposite of that.

Here is what Jesus teaches.

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

I think you have heard the words of Jesus, and quoted Him verbatim, yet perhaps you yourself are refusing to listen by denying the goodness and sacredness inbuilt in all people. Remember who you say you are and what you say you believe Charlemagne. We are all one Body and what you do to any of us you have done to all of us and have therefore done it to Christ Himself. “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.” Tell me Charlemagne, what do you think this means?

Religion matters.

What matters is that we love one another. This is what Jesus told you to do. He did not tell you to take measure of anyone’s beliefs or lack thereof, their caste, their creed, their nationality or their religion. Your job is simply to love. And if you’re not going to do that,
you are living out the very condemnation you spoke of earlier. Not a condemnation at a pre-life trial of some sort, but the condemnation of the very life you are living right now.

“Fools say in their heart, ‘There is no God.’ Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good.” Psalms 14:1

Even greater fools say that there is a God, yet mistreat him when they see Him.

Religion matters.

Love matters. What you call yourself does not matter.

This isn’t me presenting my own opinion. This is Biblical teaching, right?

I believe that this is truly what you believe.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[PRmerger]

Which is what you agreed with. Designing X so that it won’t do Y is the same as designing X so that it can’t do Y. If you see some sort of distinction here that I don’t, forgive me because I don’t know how to work around such distinctions grammatically

Ah. I see now where your misunderstanding lies.

You originally posted something about God designing us…(bold mine)

You’re switching around words. I said that he would eliminate the possibility of evil, not the choice.

For example, let’s say that there is no human who will bring about a Second Holocaust. God designed every human, and he knows which humans will commit atrocities and what those atrocities will be.

This is true–God does design every human.

But then you switched to this…

I dunno. You asked me to translate a phrase and I did. Why did you want it translated?

If you can’t remember, maybe it would be best to take stock of where we are in this discussion, because frankly I’ve lost track of what you agree or disagree with. You said that God designing humans who he knows won’t enact a Second Holocaust doesn’t amount to intruding on our free will, correct? However, you seemed to take issue with the possibility of God doing the same for every possible evil action, because that would effectively prevent all evil.

My questions for you were: 1) If Hitler could choose to cause a Holocaust, but someone else were designed so that they can’t, wouldn’t that person have less free will than Hitler? 2) How many evil actions have to be prevented in this roundabout manner for it to be problematic? If God creating in such a way that the Holocaust can’t be caused doesn’t inhibit our free will, how many evil actions have to be prevented before free will is inhibited?

…which posits that God actually designed an individual so he chooses a particular action.

I corrected your error with: “So there is no such thing as a person being designed “so they can’t” choose a Second Holocaust.”

So please note, Oreoracle, that I actually disagreed with you on this point.

But yet you persisted in saying I agreed that God designed such a course of action.

**Which is what you agreed with. **Designing X so that it won’t do Y is the same as designing X so that it can’t do Y. If you see some sort of distinction here that I don’t, forgive me because I don’t know how to work around such distinctions grammatically.

So you see what you did there?

You switched from saying God designs us. (Yes! 100% agree! Very Catholic, this!)

To…

Therefore God designs all of our choices. (No! 100% disagree!)

God does not design us to choose a particular action.

 

[Bradski]

You, too, have something that informs you of this.You just don’t acknowledge it, but it has been written in your heart.

As I tend to agree with most Christians as to what is moral or not, then there is a possibility that maybe you are right. But after very many years of thinking about this and reading and discussing it, I have come to the very firm position that you are wrong.

So it must be me making the decisions.

It appears that what tony was saying that its nonsensical to say that “the choices of non-existent persons can be known.” Is there something about that which you find objectionable?

He didn’t say non-existent, he said uncreated.

The issue is why God creates us if He knows we are going to make evil decisions. The answer is that the choices of uncreated persons are unknowable. Once we are created He knows exactly what we shall choose but He cannot be blamed for our decisions.

So before he creates us, He doesn’t know our choices. Once He creates us He does. He didn’t before He created us, He does after. There is no ambiguity there. And apart from it being illogical from an omniscient viewpoint, I’m not even sure that you can use the phrase ‘once we are created’ because that implies a timeline for God. A sequence of events.

But why? Why don’t we see that it’s harmful to us to express our anger by shouting at our mates and therefore use our rational minds to stop this behavior?

Christianity has an answer.

I think atheism’s answer is: we don’t know why we continue to act out negatively. We just do.

I thought I said I did know and that the answer was empathy. If we shout at someone it will probably have a negative effect on them. The rational part of the brain realises this (if you are an irrational person you might not appreciate that fact). So if you feel empathy you might think twice about doing it. Unless other emotions supersede your empathetic ones (anger, jealousy etc).

Do you not shout at people because you are a Christian? I doubt it. You go the same process as I do. Again, if you want to say that God places that feeling of empathy within me, then there’s no more to discuss.

If you can tell me why you left him in the garden with a bone and told him not to touch it, then we can investigate this a little further…

I thought he’d be fine. I told him not to dig a hole. He’s a smart dog, he knew that he shouldn’t have done it. When he heard me coming home, he ran off and hid behind a tree. My wife thinks that although the dog succumbed to temptation and did what he knew he shouldn’t do, I have to take some responsibility (well, knowing my wife, all the responsibility).

I wouldn’t conceive a child that I knew was going to instigate a second Holocaust.

But if I were Master of the Universe, and I knew that this event was the choice of someone who rejected me, then I would have to say, “So be it. But I will make it up to those millions of folks who suffered for a short time as a result of this evil choice and give them an eternity of bliss.”

Aren’t they going to get that anyway? What’s wrong with you having the child and arguing the same thing? We’ve had plenty of people saying, for example, that it’s OK to kill Egyptian first born because they are getting ‘an eternity of bliss’.

If the people in the second Holocaust deserve to go to heaven or not, it’s not for you to decide. So why not have the child?

 

[PRmerger]

Love matters. What you call yourself does not matter.

Love without truth is an empty shell, Gary. It is merely emotionality.

Imagine an otherwise rational adult man who says, “I love Santa Claus! Because of this jolly old elf who flies in a sled and knows when I sleep and when I eat, I want to be good and kind!”…we would not encourage him in this belief, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

So it must be me making the decisions.

Were you under the impression that I was saying it’s NOT you making the decisions?

He didn’t say non-existent, he said uncreated.

Um…ok.

Both are the same. If we are uncreated, we don’t exist.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Love without truth is an empty shell, Gary. It is merely emotionality.

Love is truth PR. But you are free to think otherwise. You can have all the truth and rightness there is to have. I will simply take the love, and not argue with you on this matter.

Imagine an otherwise rational adult man who says, “I love Santa Claus! Because of this jolly old elf who flies in a sled and knows when I sleep and when I eat, I want to be good and kind!”…we would not encourage him in this belief, yes?

Well, ironically, I think most Atheists would agree with you on that.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[PRmerger]

I thought I said I did know and that the answer was empathy.

The answer to the question: why do we do bad things is “empathy”?

If we shout at someone it will probably have a negative effect on them. The rational part of the brain realises this (if you are an irrational person you might not appreciate that fact). So if you feel empathy you might think twice about doing it. Unless other emotions supersede your empathetic ones (anger, jealousy etc).

Do you not shout at people because you are a Christian? I doubt it. You go the same process as I do. Again, if you want to say that God places that feeling of empathy within me, then there’s no more to discuss.

I asked why we aren’t how we want to be.

Christianity has an answer.

I don’t know what atheism’s answer is to this, except, “It just is how we are. We get angry, even though we don’t want to. We get jealous, even though we don’t want to. We hate, even though we don’t want to. It’s…just the way it is…shrug”

 

[PRmerger]

Love is truth PR.

Well, it depends upon what you love.

This guy loves his Bible, and the verse which support his hate. And he certainly thinks that he is loving God through his actions.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20227&d=1403928673

I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t countenance his “love”, right?

So, no, not all love is truth, Gary.

 

[Bradski]

A “good” driver would involve those qualities which pertain to driving to the fullest.

Is there something in your Christianity that gives you an insight into what constitutes a good driver? If someone asks you if your wife is a good driver, do you say that ‘she has those qualities which pertain driving to the fullest!’

I’m not even sure what ‘pertain driving to the fullest’ means. If it means not hitting pedestrians and always indicating before turning, then say so. Let’s skip the pseudo scriptural jargon. Your beliefs may dictate some aspects of your life, but you still go through the same process of decision making as the rest of us.

Should you eat meat? Should you hunt? Should you be worried about watching too much TV? Should you spend that extra money on a new car? Should you skip the dinner with your wife and go to the game if she says it’s OK? Should you put your right trouser leg on first or the left?

Life is made up of countless decisions that we have to make every waking moment. And virtually none of them will have you pausing for thought for a moment and thinking: What would Jesus do here? How does scripture inform me in this regard?

You go through the same emotions and same thought processes all through your waking hours as everyone else. Atheists. Deisits, Muslims, whatever. You get just as angry as the rest of us when someone pinches your car space. You get frustrated like everyone else when you have to work back. You feel relieved when no-one notices a mistake you made. In other words, there is no difference between you and me and everyone else.

Except that you class yourself as a Christian and tell everyone that you live your life by your beliefs which is the only way it can be done (no-one else has a chance!). And that you know, because you are a Christian, what constitutes a good driver! Her qualities pertain to the fullest!

Good for you…

 

[Bradski]

I don’t know what atheism’s answer is to this, except, “It just is how we are. We get angry, even though we don’t want to. We get jealous, even though we don’t want to. We hate, even though we don’t want to. It’s…just the way it is…shrug”

What you listed are some problems that we all have. Don’t you agree that you get angry even though you don’t want to? Or jealous?

The atheist answer you have given is a shrug. Which implies that even though there’s something we don’t want to do (because that is actually the way life really is), an atheist would say that we can’t do anything about it.

I don’t think that you think that that’s correct.

 

[oldcelt]

Absolve Him of His knowledge?

Why should He be guilty of it?

The fact that you create a child that you know is going to poop in his pants in no way makes you guilty of his poor hygiene.

Very Catholic, this!

And no logical explanation. The human who creates a child knows that they will move their bowels. The Christian God know that one of his creation will commit evil.
The difference is that the Christian God could prevent it…the human can’t.

 

[Amandil]

Is there something in your Christianity that gives you an insight into what constitutes a good driver? If someone asks you if your wife is a good driver, do you say that ‘she has those qualities which pertain driving to the fullest!’

You asked the question.

Bradski:

Life is made up of countless decisions that we have to make every waking moment. And virtually none of them will have you pausing for thought for a moment and thinking: What would Jesus do here? How does scripture inform me in this regard?

And none of these examples relate to that thing we are talking about now in this discussion in regards as to what is “good” and the exercise of free will. As explained in my definition even though the will is active in all of those choices they’re not the objects of the will. They simply demonstrate that in all of those choices that the will is free.

Bradski:

You go through the same emotions and same thought processes all through your waking hours as everyone else. Atheists. Deisits, Muslims, whatever. You get just as angry as the rest of us when someone pinches your car space.

Angry? Do I? How do you know?

Bradski:

You get frustrated like everyone else when you have to work back.

I don’t even know what this means.

Bradski:

You feel relieved when no-one notices a mistake you made.

Really? What is the nature of the mistake?

Bradski:

In other words, there is no difference between you and me and everyone else.

No difference in being, ontologically, no.

But there is a definite difference in how I look at circumstances I encounter compared to how you look at them.

Bradski:

Except that you class yourself as a Christian and tell everyone that you live your life by your beliefs which is the only way it can be done (no-one else has a chance!). And that you know, because you are a Christian, what constitutes a good driver! Her qualities pertain to the fullest!

Good for you…

Another strawman. Just when I thought we actually made some progress.

 

[Kurisu35712]

The issue in saying that God creates evil by creating humans who will commit evil acts is somewhat misleading, at least as far as my knowledge of Catholic theology is concerned. God doesn’t create anyone who IS evil, though I guess that isn’t really the issue at hand. But it isn’t as if God is sitting up in Heaven thinking “Oh this person will do evil things if I create them and hurt a lot of people, so therefore I won’t let them exist,” for multiple reasons. For one, this mortal life is really less than a blip when measured against timeless eternity. For the sake of the argument, assume that there is an eternal afterlife, and ones mortal choices influence one’s destination, as does the infinite mercy of God. Saying that sounds like a lot of supposes, but regardless…

To God, the victims of the person instigating this hypothetical second Holocaust are not simply nonexistent after their death. I would imagine, due to their suffering, that His mercy would overshadow even their own sins, and they would be allowed to live in eternal peace in Heaven. For that reason alone, the harm of a temporal evil act would not affect, in an eternal sense, the well-being of the persons affected by that act. However, the time that the instigator has left during their lifetime offers them an opportunity only afforded to humans. That person, despite their evil choices, still has an opportunity to seek forgiveness with God and return to a state of grace that would allow even them to share in that eternal peace. This is the difference between humans and angels. An angel’s choice, due to their knowledge of the consequences and the effect on their state, is irreversible. They cannot seek forgiveness because, by their choice, eternally refuse forgiveness, as they too exist outside of time. Whereas a human has a chance to be forgiven and reunited with God, as our choices are NOT made outside of time, and we are still allowed the chance to change.

Also, the propensity for a person to commit an evil act is not, in God’s eyes, justification for them not to exist. God created humans, specifically human souls, with the very same freedom of will as the angels. This is because, in order to truly and fully love someone, we must be free to choose to do so. That comes with the possibility that we can choose NOT to. Without that potentiality, what you have is not love, but a forced servitude. That is precisely what God intended to avoid in giving us freedom of will, which is simply the freedom to either reject or accept God’s love, and to return it.

The problem that some find with this is that God creates some humans with the knowledge that they will choose rejection of Him over love. Despite that knowledge, these humans still exist. God could create no humans that choose to do evil, and only create those He know will do good. Yes. He could do this. Nothing is impossible with God.

However, the fact remains that God loves each and every individual human, individually. He also loves all humans. Both are true, and not exclusive of each other. God loves the human that will choose to reject him just as much as he loves the one that would never do so. The fact that the first will (in His knowlege) hurt the second does NOT negate the fact that he loves both the first AND the second infinitely. This does not mean that both will go to Heaven, but that does not stop him from loving both of them. The fact stands that, despite knowing that he would instigate the Holocaust and kill millions of humans, God still loved Hitler. God does not hate any of His humans, despite what they may do. He gives them the freedom to choose to accept Him or reject Him equally.

He does not choose not to create those who reject Him because, despite their rejection, He loves them and respects their choice to do so. Each are given equally the ability to reject love and the chance to receive forgiveness.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Well, it depends upon what you love.

This guy loves his Bible, and the verse which support his hate. And he certainly thinks that he is loving God through his actions.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20227&d=1403928673

I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t countenance his “love”, right?

So, no, not all love is truth, Gary.

Good Morning PR: Such a person is not experiencing love of any sort. They are using the bible to promote hate, and therefore hate is what they know, not love.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[Bradski]

The fact stands that, despite knowing that he would instigate the Holocaust and kill millions of humans, God still loved Hitler. God does not hate any of His humans, despite what they may do. He gives them the freedom to choose to accept Him or reject Him equally.

This is not a great recipe for a happy and peaceful existence in the here and now.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

The answer to the question: why do we do bad things is “empathy”?

I asked why we aren’t how we want to be.

Good Morning PR: Many people aren’t how they want to be because they are told that they should be something other than what they are.

Christianity has an answer.

I don’t know what atheism’s answer is to this, except, "It just is how we are. We get angry, even though we don’t want to. We get jealous, even though we don’t want to. We hate, even though we don’t want to. It’s…just the way it is…*shrug

And while Christianity has answers, Christians get angry even though they don’t want to, get jealous even though they don’t want to and hate even though they don’t want to. And that’s just the way it is. Nothing about the human experience is fundamentally altered by Christianity, except the aperture through which we view things. Everyone has the same feelings, the same joys and the same sorrows and the same desires and the same frustrations.

Regardless of what we call ourselves, we are all connected and all one thing. The world outside your skin is not separate from the world inside your skin. We are part of our environment, the air we breath, the things we eat, the ecosystems in which we live. We are thereby connected to and part of every other thing in our environment. Which means we are part of each other, and part of everything that ever lived or will live. Which includes Christ. We are part of Him too, and this is without regard to what we believe.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[Bradski]

Good Morning PR: Such a person is not experiencing love of any sort. They are using the bible to promote hate, and therefore hate is what they know, not love.

Excuse me for hijacking the thread temporarily, but there is an excellent BBC documentary on the Phelps family. Having watched it a couple of weeks back I can say that there is absolutely no doubt that the late Fred Phelps was a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. But quite a few of the rest of his family come across as reasonably intelligent. Especially his granddaughters. Quite fascinating.

You can find the programme here: topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-most-hated-family-in-america/

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Excuse me for hijacking the thread temporarily, but there is an excellent BBC documentary on the Phelps family. Having watched it a couple of weeks back I can say that there is absolutely no doubt that the late Fred Phelps was a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. But quite a few of the rest of his family come across as reasonably intelligent. Especially his granddaughters. Quite fascinating.

You can find the programme here: topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-most-hated-family-in-america/

Thank you Bradski: I saw that program and was reminded of how you can find redeeming values in anyone. Like most of us, the Phelps family is living proof that even a broken clock is right twice a day, and a flat tire is only flat on the bottom.

 

[Bradski]

We are part of our environment, the air we breath, the things we eat, the ecosystems in which we live. We are thereby connected to and part of every other thing in our environment.

Not to get all Gaia, but I like to think that we are just bits of the universe that have become self aware.