God created evil

[Charlemagne_III]

That is the subtle distinction that is being left out and which is incompatible with free will. Perfect beings, even the Blessed Virgin Mary, possess the possibility of the abuse of free will, but their nature and knowledge has been perfected by grace to such a degree that they would never abuse their free will by committing sin. Grace perfects nature, it does not overrule nature.

And because God exists outside of time and knew from all eternity that Mary would accept the invitation of the angel to become the mother of the Messiah, God could confer the Immaculate Conception on her. Without the stain of original sin, she was strengthened by grace to be devoid of actual sin as well. Mary is what Eve threw away. Jesus, also immaculately conceived, is what Adam threw away. A new Adam and a new Eve, our parents in the truest sense of the word.

 

[PRmerger]

And while Christianity has answers, Christians get angry even though they don’t want to, get jealous even though they don’t want to and hate even though they don’t want to. And that’s just the way it is. Nothing about the human experience is fundamentally altered by Christianity, except the aperture through which we view things. Everyone has the same feelings, the same joys and the same sorrows and the same desires and the same frustrations.

True, true.

And what is Christianity’s answer to why we get angry even though we don’t want to?

 

[PRmerger]

My only goal has been to establish that the argument “God creating perfect beings would violate free will” is wrong by the conception of free will that has been advanced in this thread.

I don’t know what Catholic has made that argument, but that is not my argument, nor the argument of the Church.

God did indeed create a perfect human person who had her free will in its entirety.

So the above description is not a correct presentation of Catholic thought.

 

[PRmerger]

Uh? I left him a bone because…dogs like bones. And he shouldn’t have done it because it ruined the flower bed. I told him not do it, he knew he shouldn’t do it but did it any way and now my wife holds me responsible.

Can that be right?

Then if you’re trying to make a comparison to God in the Garden of Eden leaving us with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the analogy fails…

 

[Bradski]

And because God exists outside of time and knew from all eternity that Mary would accept the invitation of the angel to become the mother of the Messiah…

So is there anyone who has existed, exists right now or will exist about whom God has no knowledge of the choices they are likely to make?

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

You’ll have to forgive me for being difficult, but this seems like hair-splitting.

You don’t see the difference between God designing us, making us, so to speak from the mud of the earth…into beautiful, rational creatures who can make our own choices…

and God designing us so that we cannot make any choice except that which He programmed us to do?

Really?

God can consider the possible humans he will create, and he knows beforehand what they will do. He can do this without ever following through with the creative act. So God sort of “shops” for souls in a way; he considers the possible outcomes of the beings he might create, and if he doesn’t like the way one will impact the rest of creation, he will scrap the idea and design someone else instead.

What evidence do you have that God does this?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

From PRmerger:

Does this include the Rev. Fred Phelps? Should he be who he is: a man who has read the Bible and formed his own opinions about it?

People read the bible and form opinions. It’s not for me to say.

It would appear from your answer above that you are telling him to be something other than what he is?

Actually I am only giving my sense of what he is based on his actions. I have not said that he should be something else.

I am confused

It wasn’t my intent to confuse anyone.

 

[PRmerger]

From PRmerger:

People read the bible and form opinions. It’s not for me to say.

Wow. That’s too bad.

Because when the WBC picketed at Mizzou, if I had been in town, I would have presented myself to them to say, “Your reading of the Bible and your opinions about what it says about God hating homosexuals are wrong.”

That’s a shame that you wouldn’t and couldn’t do that.

Rather, telling me that “it’s not for me to say” only lets evil flourish.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

It would appear, then, that you understand that love needs to be grounded in truth.

Who can doubt that the Rev. Fred Phelps loves? He loves his Bible. He loves his views. He loves his church. He, of course, loves his family. He loves all those in his church. He loves all those whose views are consistent with his…

He does love.

But without truth, it is…whacky.

It appears that his love for the bible led him to hate. He was not unusual. Just highly visible.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

By not believing in God, do you think we are doing good?

We are capable of doing a lot of good without regard to whether or not we believe in God. We are also capable of doing a lot of bad things without regard to whether or not we believe in God. It is less a matter of what we believe and more a matter of what we live. This is my opinion.

 

[PRmerger]

It appears that his love for the bible led him to hate. He was not unusual. Just highly visible.

Thank you,
Gary

Indeed.

It is becoming more apparent…

that Truth matters, eh? :ehh:

Love without truth is…

well, sometimes it can lead you to becoming a highly visible proclaimer of lies. Fred Phelps is a lover, to be sure.

But without truth, we get some really, really heinous ideas, don’t you think?

 

[PRmerger]

We are capable of doing a lot of good without regard to whether or not we believe in God.

This is true.

Some of the most moral people I know are atheists.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

From PRmerger: Wow. That’s too bad.

Because when the WBC picketed at Mizzou, if I had been in town, I would have presented myself to them to say, “Your reading of the Bible and your opinions about what it says about God hating homosexuals are wrong.”

I am sure that the WBC has heard all of that before PR. People seldom remember with any great profundity the sermons they hear. They remember the sermons they see. In other words, they remember mostly the example we set and not what we tell them.

Now, it happens that Fred Phelps and the WBC did come to my town for the funeral of the wife of a US Senator from our state who had run for president a few election cycles ago. What we did was to line the streets near the church and the funeral route with mourners, which left the WBC no room to get near the family and the funeral. We did not respond in kind to the signs the planned to carry. We showed them a sermon by covering the streets with love, which left no room for hate.

That’s a shame that you wouldn’t and couldn’t do that.

I am happy with the way we dealt with the situation.

Rather, telling me that “it’s not for me to say” only lets evil flourish.

It is only for me to say how I live and what actions I take in response to practical matters. As I have demonstrated, there are smart ways to deal with these things.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[PRmerger]

I am sure that the WBC has heard all of that before PR. People seldom remember with any great profundity the sermons they hear. They remember the sermons they see. In other words, they remember mostly the example we set and not what we tell them.

So now I am confused about this as well, Gary.

Are you saying that you’re not opposed to telling them they are wrong, as long as it is by example, and not in words?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

So now I am confused about this as well, Gary.

Are you saying that you’re not opposed to telling them they are wrong, as long as it is by example, and not in words?

Good Evening PR: I am for going about the business of life in such a way as to make my actions a demonstration of what I think. Most people are able to get the message from that.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So is there anyone who has existed, exists right now or will exist about whom God has no knowledge of the choices they are likely to make?

No such person exists. That’s why we call God omniscient.

Maybe you’ve heard the term?

 

[Aloysium]

So is there anyone who has existed, exists right now or will exist about whom God has no knowledge of the choices they are likely to make?

There’s a problem with your question.

"So is there anyone who has existed . . . about whom God has no knowledge of the choices they are likely to make?"

It is more than grammatical. It reflects how you are thinking of God as predicting or seeing the future, rather than His being everywhere and in every time.

Do you see it?

:twocents:

First, how about if I complicate things a bit more:
God relates to everyone; He loves us as His children.
Through His Love, God creates us and seeks to bring us to Him.
It is through His love that He knows us.

He would know us in a way similar to how one knows one’s spouse - an intimate loving relationship.

Back to your questions:
Relative to this particular moment in time.
If a person existed before now and is dead, they will not make any more choices. God is aware of all that is that person - their worries, joys, and the nature of their interactions, whether the person is aware of them or not.
If the person exists right now, everything that has happened before is known in the same way that it is known now - as a living truth. All the choices they will make as God reaches out to them are known as this moment is known, all happening in His eternal Now. He sees it all as it happens, whenever it happens.
For the person born in say 2020, God brings him into creation and guides him through life, whether or not the person is aware of this happening. (God is everywhere, and this makes Him difficult to see.) This person is known by God, as is the person born in the year 1020 and as we are now.

I would say that the choices refer the ups and downs in the relationship with God. When you seek the truth, when you hold your tongue, when you pay the families bills you are strengthening that relationship by giving of yourself. You become love. When you withdraw into selfishness the bond is weakened.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

We are capable of doing a lot of good without regard to whether or not we believe in God. We are also capable of doing a lot of bad things without regard to whether or not we believe in God. It is less a matter of what we believe and more a matter of what we live. This is my opinion.

You didn’t answer my question. You are evasive? Try again?

By not believing in God, do you think we are doing good?

Or let me re-phrase it.

Do you think we are doing good when we refuse to believe in God?

 

[Bradski]

No such person exists. That’s why we call God omniscient.

Maybe you’ve heard the term?

I have indeed. And I know what it means. I concur with your answer. I just wanted confirmation because I’m just not sure that Tony does.

 

[Bradski]

For the person born in say 2020, God brings him into creation and guides him through life…

And if that person ends up in hell, then God knew that before He ‘brings him into creation’. He creates him knowing that he will end up in hell.

I’ll assume, from what you have just written and from what Charlemagne has just written earlier that you agree with the statement I just made.

Now we can ask if you think that God had any choice about creating this person.

If He didn’t then He must be restricted in some way and he is not omnipotent. If He did, then how do you think it reflects on God’s goodness and mercy that He purposely created someone whom He knows will suffer eternal torment?