God created evil

[PRmerger]

And if that person ends up in hell, then God knew that before He ‘brings him into creation’. He creates him knowing that he will end up in hell.

There is no knowing he “will”. God does not experience sequentiality.

God lives in the Eternal Now in which past, present and future are all equally present to Him.

 

[PRmerger]

Another strawman.

Indeed.

 

[PRmerger]

I have not said that he should be something else.

You don’t think the Rev. Fred Phelps shouldn’t be a hater?

Or, said without the double negatives: Fred Phelps should continue to be a hater, in your opinion?

 

[PRmerger]

What you listed are some problems that we all have. Don’t you agree that you get angry even though you don’t want to? Or jealous?

The atheist answer you have given is a shrug. Which implies that even though there’s something we don’t want to do (because that is actually the way life really is), an atheist would say that we can’t do anything about it.

So just so I can be clear: (your) atheistic answer to "Why do we do things that we know are contrary to how we ought to be is…‘because that is actually the way life really is!’ "

Is that a correct synopsis of your answer?

 

[PRmerger]

And no logical explanation.

The logical explanation is that we ruined God’s plan. So God had to fix it.

 

[Bradski]

There is no knowing he “will”. God does not experience sequentiality.

God lives in the Eternal Now in which past, present and future are all equally present to Him.

OK. Then God creates him knowing he is in hell. Or whatever tense you’d like. In fact, what tense would you like me to use so that we don’t keep encountering this problem? As I said earlier, I Have no idea how to conjugate ‘to be’ in the Eternal Now tense.

I’m assuming here that you do accept that God creates people. If you want to say that everyone, as far as God is concerned, was created at the moment that everything else was created, then that’s fine. If you want some timeless gap between the creation of existence and of people, then all good. I’ll go with whatever you say.

But it goes without saying, that God knows (him being omniscient and all) that whenever it is, in the timeless now or throughout infinite time, in the eternal now, or half past four last Thursday, who was going to end up in hell and who wasn’t.

And if He knows this, then He can’t be wrong about it, so it can’t be changed. Just like the rock He can’t lift.

Does that make sense.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

You don’t think the Rev. Fred Phelps shouldn’t be a hater?

Or, said without the double negatives: Fred Phelps should continue to be a hater, in your opinion?

Good Morning PR: The Rev Phelps doesn’t continue to do anything in this world since his passing, however, the point is that his beliefs caused him to be a hater. Christianity, like any belief system, is something like a hammer. It can be used to make good things happen and be used to make bad things happen. As to what Phelps should have been, well, I think everyone finds the place where they belong. Water can only be at the level at which its capacity allows in a given set of environmental circumstances.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[PRmerger]

I am sure that the WBC has heard all of that before PR. People seldom remember with any great profundity the sermons they hear. They remember the sermons they see. In other words, they remember mostly the example we set and not what we tell them.

Now, it happens that Fred Phelps and the WBC did come to my town for the funeral of the wife of a US Senator from our state who had run for president a few election cycles ago. What we did was to line the streets near the church and the funeral route with mourners, which left the WBC no room to get near the family and the funeral. We did not respond in kind to the signs the planned to carry. We showed them a sermon by covering the streets with love, which left no room for hate.

I am happy with the way we dealt with the situation.

It is only for me to say how I live and what actions I take in response to practical matters. As I have demonstrated, there are smart ways to deal with these things.

Thank you,
Gary

So I hope you can see my confusion here.

It appears that in one post you are saying that we really can’t say whether someone’s opinions are right or wrong.

Is that correct? Are you saying that the Rev. Fred Phelps can do what he wants and believe what he wants and “it’s not for me to say” whether his method/beliefs are good or bad?

It certainly sounded like that was your response!

And then…

it also appears that you are telling me in another post that your way of addressing FP (by actions) is better than my way (by words).

Would that also be a correct assessment of your post?

If so, you can imagine my confusion!

First you are saying, “Who am I to say?” regarding FP and his vile ideas.

And yet for something as benign as “preaching via words” vs “preaching via actions” you actually DO SAY. You tell me, essentially, that my sermon via words would be ineffective.



FP and vile ideas…you can’t really say.

My opposition and methods…you actually do say.

I really don’t understand, Gary…

 

[PRmerger]

Good Morning PR: The Rev Phelps doesn’t continue to do anything in this world since his passing, however, the point is that his beliefs caused him to be a hater. Christianity, like any belief system, is something like a hammer. It can be used to make good things happen and be used to make bad things happen. As to what Phelps should have been, well, I think everyone finds the place where they belong. Water can only be at the level at which its capacity allows in a given set of environmental circumstances.

Thank you,
Gary

Amen!

Very Catholic, this!

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Indeed.

I think we can conclude when evasion is the tactic that our argument has made its point and is understood to be untenable.

Good Morning PR: That the meaning in the answers elude you does not mean the answers are evasive.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[Bradski]

So just so I can be clear: (your) atheistic answer to "Why do we do things that we know are contrary to how we ought to be is…‘because that is actually the way life really is!’ "

Is that a correct synopsis of your answer?

We might be talking of two different things. It was originally emotion. Getting angry, becoming jealous, feeling hate. Those are feelings that are entirely natural and feeling them is something about which we can do nothing. And yes, that’s the way life really is. Everyone feels these emotions at some time or another.

What we can do about those emotions is another matter. If we hate someone, we can hurt them. If we desire something we can take it. Or we can try not to hurt people by controlling how we react to those emotions. And we generally don’t want to hurt people because…wait for it…we have empathy for them. We don’t like to see people hurt.

Again, you might say that that feeling of empathy is God talking to me. OK. But I don’t believe in God, so as far as I am concerned, it is entirely natural.

 

[PRmerger]

OK. Then God creates him knowing he is in hell.

Sure. But that wasn’t God’s choice.

God’s creation was a Pure Action, borne out of Pure Love.

What this creature chose to do with his life puts the onus on the creature, not on God.

Or whatever tense you’d like. In fact, what tense would you like me to use so that we don’t keep encountering this problem? As I said earlier, I Have no idea how to conjugate ‘to be’ in the Eternal Now tense.

It is true that our human language is woefully inutile in discussing the Being and Essence of God.

I’m assuming here that you do accept that God creates people. If you want to say that everyone, as far as God is concerned, was created at the moment that everything else was created, then that’s fine. If you want some timeless gap between the creation of existence and of people, then all good. I’ll go with whatever you say.

But it goes without saying, that God knows (him being omniscient and all) that whenever it is, in the timeless now or throughout infinite time, in the eternal now, or half past four last Thursday, who was going to end up in hell and who wasn’t.

And if He knows this, then He can’t be wrong about it, so it can’t be changed. Just like the rock He can’t lift.

Does that make sense.

Addressed above.

 

[PRmerger]

Good Morning PR: The Rev Phelps doesn’t continue to do anything in this world since his passing,

May God have mercy on his soul.

 

[PRmerger]

We might be talking of two different things. It was originally emotion. Getting angry, becoming jealous, feeling hate. Those are feelings that are entirely natural and feeling them is something about which we can do nothing. And yes, that’s the way life really is. Everyone feels these emotions at some time or another.

What we can do about those emotions is another matter. If we hate someone, we can hurt them. If we desire something we can take it. Or we can try not to hurt people by controlling how we react to those emotions. And we generally don’t want to hurt people because…wait for it…we have empathy for them. We don’t like to see people hurt.

Again, you might say that that feeling of empathy is God talking to me. OK. But I don’t believe in God, so as far as I am concerned, it is entirely natural.

So is the atheistic answer to “why is there evil in the world” is “because sometimes we get angry and lose control. Sometimes we lack empathy”?

 

[Bradski]

Sure. But that wasn’t God’s choice.

Who said it was? I seem to be having the greatest difficulty getting this across. I am agreeing with everything you say, PR. There is free will (which I am admitting for the purpose of this thread). If someone goes to hell, then it is because of the choices that they themselves make using that free will. It’s not God’s fault that they end up in hell.

Now, is that agreeable? I’m pretty certain I’ve covered all bases there.

I’m also certain that you would have no problem in me saying that God is omniscient. He knows everything, and as you have pointed out, He knows it all outside of what we consider to be time. So He knows who is in hell and who is not. Whether they have yet been born or not is immaterial because time has no meaning for God. He just knows.

And again, I cannot see any argument against the statement that God created us all. Or will create, or did create. Whatever tense you like. So people that have been, will be, are being created (again, feel free with the tenses) God knows if they are or will be in hell. It’s not going to be a surprise for Him. In fact He already sees it. It can’t change, it already just ‘is’.

Now is that reasonable or not?

 

[Bradski]

So is the atheistic answer to “why is there evil in the world” is “because sometimes we get angry and lose control. Sometimes we lack empathy”?

Bad things happen when we lose empathy for others.

 

[PRmerger]

Bad things happen when we lose empathy for others.

And why do we lose empathy?

 

[PRmerger]

Who said it was? I seem to be having the greatest difficulty getting this across. I am agreeing with everything you say, PR. There is free will (which I am admitting for the purpose of this thread). If someone goes to hell, then it is because of the choices that they themselves make using that free will. It’s not God’s fault that they end up in hell.

Yes, I understand that you are in agreement with us that if someone is in hell it is because of her choice.

But it certainly does sound like you’re suggesting that this is indeed God’s fault.

If you acknowledge that it’s “not God’s fault”, then what the heck is your objection to how all of this works???

 

[PRmerger]

Excuse me for hijacking the thread temporarily, but there is an excellent BBC documentary on the Phelps family. Having watched it a couple of weeks back I can say that there is absolutely no doubt that the late Fred Phelps was a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. But quite a few of the rest of his family come across as reasonably intelligent. Especially his granddaughters. Quite fascinating.

You can find the programme here: topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-most-hated-family-in-america/

Am watching this now. I am simultaneously astonished, puzzled, and angry at this group.

But mostly I watch this and am filled with sorrow.

There is nothing more heart-wrenching to me than seeing professed Christians use the Word of God for evil.

EDIT: I wish to pre-empt any comments such as, “Really? You don’t find [fill in the blank with a horrific event] more heart-wrenching than bad Christians quoting the Bible erroneously?” The above in italics is hyperbolic. Of course I can think of a multitude of things which are more heart-wrenching.

 

[Bradski]

And why do we lose empathy?

I’m repeating myself. Distance both physically and mentally, other emotions overriding our feelings of empathy, being convinced that others are not worth feeling empathy for, objectifying them. I’m sure you can add some others.

And try it the other way around. Tell me something bad that happens (apart from disease or natural disasters and such like) that doesn’t involve a lack of empathy.

Make a list. I’ll read them in the morning.