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Bahman
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I am going to open the second thread God created evil II sometimes soon. I hope to find you there too and I am sure that you have much potential than you feel right now.
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tonyrey
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Anyone who claims to know what omniscience means is implicitly claiming to be omniscient. I’m pleased I don’t fall into that category…
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Amandil
Guest
So there is a difference between truth and truth.
I don’t suppose that you know what the law of non-contradiction is, do you?
But according to your system there is no possible way to know, only believe.
You just said
So now you’re also trying to tell me that there is a difference between a belief and a belief?
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tonyrey
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Correction: Anyone who claims to know precisely what omniscience means is implicitly claiming to be omniscient. How can we determine what is knowable in principle and what isn’t?tonyrey;12239460 [QUOTE said:
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Bradski
Guest
(Dramatic voice over): They said He created Evil. They had no idea. And now He’s back. And this time…it’s personal…
Opening in all good theaters this weekend. See local guides for details.
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Oreoracle
Guest
I can give logical/mathematical examples of when such determinations can be made (look up “completeness” of a deductive system). Gödel’s work dealt with such questions. However, I’m sure everyone’s tired of my mathematical examples at this point.
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PRmerger
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Why do you get to profess your beliefs, and maintain that they are correct, while denying Catholicism this right to do the same?
Either you get to express your beliefs, and profess, “What I am saying is absolutely true!”…
while saying, “Catholicism also gets to express her beliefs and profess that it is absolutely true!”
OR!
You say, “I am saying something, but I have no idea if it’s correct or not…”
…to which we respond, “Then you will have to forgive us if we give your words no credit whatsoever. We dismiss all you say since even you don’t believe it’s true.”
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Bradski
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I’m not sure if anyone has said you can’t have your beliefs. But if someone holds a different position to you and they say: ‘I believe my position is correct’ then it goes without saying that they think that your position is wrong.
Equally logically, if they say that they know that their position is correct, then they will be stating or implying that yours is definitely wrong.
Personally speaking I find that I am always on the back foot in these forums because I maintain that nothing can be known with any certainty (even if I don’t explicitly state it in every post) whereas almost all Catholics will state that they have zero doubt about mnay things.
Incidentally, was it this thread where you were going to give me an Empathy List? Or at least where I asked for one…
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PRmerger
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Implicitly, it has been maintained that Catholics cannot tell people that their actions are not moral/good/correct because “No one knows for sure if something is good or bad.”
Egg-zactly.
So that is my beef with Bahman.
He is saying, at the same time, “You really don’t know what truth is. I don’t know what truth is…”
while also saying, “I believe my [Bahman’s] position is correct” which means, “[Bahman] thinks your position is wrong.”
I am glad you see that it’s quite an inconsistent position to hold, and quite difficult to maintain!
Was I?
Why would I need to do that again?
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Bradski
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You did? I’m sorry I can’t find it. Where did you post it?
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Bradski
Guest
And before the thread closes (automatically as I understand it when it gets to 1,000 posts), I’ll just get this in:
It has been agreed (not by all, but by some and even then after a lot of huffing and puffing and dancing around the point) that God is omniscient and therefore knows everything and therefore He knows who is/was/will be in heaven and hell.
It has also been agreed that God created us all (or has created or will create, whatever you think is the most applicable). It is therefore undeniable that those who are in hell were created by God. It is therefore indisputable that when some of us were created, God knew that some of us were going to be (or already were as far as He is concerned) in hell.
Now I know there has been some difficulty with using the correct tense when it comes to ‘when’ God did this or ‘when’ someone was created as opposed to ‘when’ he went to hell. But we only have the past, present and future in which to describe these things so unless you want to state that because of that difficulty these things cannot be discussed, then what has been stated above will stand.
It has also been agreed that we have free will. That is, if we end up in hell, then it is of our own making. God did not make the decision for us. We have no-one to blame but ourselves. He gives us all the opportunities to avoid going to hell as we are likely to need. If we reject those opportunities, it is our fault.
If anyone does end up in hell, then it is safe to say that she did something to deserve it (I’m going to use ‘she’ so that I don’t miss using an upper case ‘He’ when referring to God and confusing everyone). No-one goes to hell for doing good. She must have done something evil (even if that was consciously rejecting God’s grace). And God, always knowing that she would end up in hell also knew that she would do evil (by her own choice) in order to end up there.
Now despite that fact that it was the woman’s choice to do evil, this evil has existed, from God’s perspective, since the woman was created. It has been argued that God cannot simply ‘not create’ the woman because He knows she will do evil because that would deprive future generations of life and that may not be part of His plan. All good.
Notwithstanding that, if He* had* decided not to create her then the evil that she does by her own hand using choices made of her own free will would not have existed. By creating her, He brings into existence that evil.
QED
It has been agreed (not by all, but by some and even then after a lot of huffing and puffing and dancing around the point) that God is omniscient and therefore knows everything and therefore He knows who is/was/will be in heaven and hell.
It has also been agreed that God created us all (or has created or will create, whatever you think is the most applicable). It is therefore undeniable that those who are in hell were created by God. It is therefore indisputable that when some of us were created, God knew that some of us were going to be (or already were as far as He is concerned) in hell.
Now I know there has been some difficulty with using the correct tense when it comes to ‘when’ God did this or ‘when’ someone was created as opposed to ‘when’ he went to hell. But we only have the past, present and future in which to describe these things so unless you want to state that because of that difficulty these things cannot be discussed, then what has been stated above will stand.
It has also been agreed that we have free will. That is, if we end up in hell, then it is of our own making. God did not make the decision for us. We have no-one to blame but ourselves. He gives us all the opportunities to avoid going to hell as we are likely to need. If we reject those opportunities, it is our fault.
If anyone does end up in hell, then it is safe to say that she did something to deserve it (I’m going to use ‘she’ so that I don’t miss using an upper case ‘He’ when referring to God and confusing everyone). No-one goes to hell for doing good. She must have done something evil (even if that was consciously rejecting God’s grace). And God, always knowing that she would end up in hell also knew that she would do evil (by her own choice) in order to end up there.
Now despite that fact that it was the woman’s choice to do evil, this evil has existed, from God’s perspective, since the woman was created. It has been argued that God cannot simply ‘not create’ the woman because He knows she will do evil because that would deprive future generations of life and that may not be part of His plan. All good.
Notwithstanding that, if He* had* decided not to create her then the evil that she does by her own hand using choices made of her own free will would not have existed. By creating her, He brings into existence that evil.
QED
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PRmerger
Guest
LOL!
I meant, “Tell me again: why do I have to do this?”
But now I remember. It was in the context of what the atheistic answer is for why we’re not how we are supposed to be–that is, people full of empathy all the time.
I will work on the list.
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Bradski
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Ah, yes. Maybe another coffee required. Still not up to speed…
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buffalo
Guest
Since God is perfect good and He created something other than His perfect self, it allows evil, otherwise would He have to recreate Himself?
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PRmerger
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I don’t have a problem with that conclusion, if by “He brings into existence” you mean, “He brings into existence the woman who chose evil.”
But it would NOT be correct to say that "By creating this woman, God created evil.
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PRmerger
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No, not automatically.
It has to come to a moderator’s attention, and then the mod will close it.
Some threads go way under their radar and go on and on and on.
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t disagree with you that most sins involve a lack of empathy. So I can’t provide a list of bad things that happen because we’re unempathetic (except, perhaps, eating until one is obese. How is that a lack of empathy? Or raising bratty children because one is too empathetic with one’s children and refuses to discipline them)
But I still don’t understand what the atheist’s answer is to why we aren’t ALWAYS empathetic?
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USMC_Convert
Guest
Bahman, your attempts to sound incredibly intelligent are coming off horribly. Stop attempting to use big fancy words, to many supporting words, adjectives and all the other stuff. If you wrote properly then people would be able to answer your question more easily.
Second, look up St. Augustine, the basics of the story are he came across a little boy on the beach while he was attempting to figure out the trinity. The boy was pouring sea water from the ocean into a little hole he had dug.
When he asked what the boy was doing he replied, I’m going to put the ocean into my hole, St. Augustine said, you can’t do that, and the boy replied, and you can’t fit the trinity into your head, then he disappeared.
If your going to use the God created evil line, just say, God created everything, he is all powerful, almighty, and nothing escapes him, therefore he must have created evil…
To that I say, no, God created everything, and watched evil come forth, it was Angels and Humans that failed God, which then created sin and evil.
Illustrated, illuminated, it is done…
Second, look up St. Augustine, the basics of the story are he came across a little boy on the beach while he was attempting to figure out the trinity. The boy was pouring sea water from the ocean into a little hole he had dug.
When he asked what the boy was doing he replied, I’m going to put the ocean into my hole, St. Augustine said, you can’t do that, and the boy replied, and you can’t fit the trinity into your head, then he disappeared.
If your going to use the God created evil line, just say, God created everything, he is all powerful, almighty, and nothing escapes him, therefore he must have created evil…
To that I say, no, God created everything, and watched evil come forth, it was Angels and Humans that failed God, which then created sin and evil.
Illustrated, illuminated, it is done…
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Bradski
Guest
Then let’s go back to the chainsaw example.
People make them so they can cut wood. Yes, they can be used to kill someone, but it’s hardly the responsibility of the person making them if someone else chooses, with his free will, to do so.
But what if the person making them knew, as a fact, that the particular one he was just about to make would be used to massacre a family. Not just ‘the next one’, but the particular one he was just about to start.
He has a choice to make it or not. If he does and someone else chooses to use it to kill (as he knows they will), does he bear any responsibility at all for what happens?
The last time this came up, the response was ‘well, I’d tell the police’ or something equally as fatuous. What do you say?
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Bradski
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I’m going to pass on self harm such as obesity. I’m only thinking of bad things that happen within society between members of that society. But then again, if someone’s obesity impacts negatively on someone else, it shows that their desire for food overrides their empathy for the feelings of whoever is affected ('I don’t care what affect my weight (hence health) has has on you, I’m having another donut!).
And bratty kids? Well, they have to bratty in some way. Let’s say making too much noise. If you allow them to do it, then your positive desire that they should enjoy themselves as much as they want overrides your concern for others in that they need some peace and quiet. Or it could be directly associated with the feelings of others such as indifference to their discomfort.
And why we aren’t always empathetic? As I said, it’s quite often distance, both mental and physical. If you are close to someone, or you ‘feel close’ to someone, you are ‘generally’ more empathetic (scare quotes because it obviously doesn’t happen all the time).
And that is because we have a limited amount of it to go around. It’s not difficult to feel empathy for the people in the plane shot down recently. It’s not difficult to feel for children killed in Gaza. It’s there in your living room in glorious colour. All that anguish. But how much bad news can you personally take before you literally switch off?
And you will. But it’s not you being cold-hearted - it’s entirely natural. If we spend as much emotional energy empathising with literally everyone else, then we would have very little emotional energy for those nearest and dearest. Ain’t evolution a wonderful thing! It helps you look after your kids.
And be honest, are you having a nice meal tonight or going somewhere on the weekend or buying something for the house or your kids or doing anything at all with he family that is classed as entirely normal that takes up your time or money?
Me too. But I know what we’re not doing with our time and money. And that’s helping people in Darfur or Angola or anywhere else that needs both. We might if we knew someone there. Or there was a documentary that you might see tonight that tugged at the heart strings. Otherwise, we* have *to switch off.
That’s the way we’re built. I say it’s entirely natural but you say it’s God. Either way, that’s the way it is…
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