God created evil

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Bradski said:
And if that person ends up in hell, then God knew that before He ‘brings him into creation’. He creates him knowing that he will end up in hell.

I’ll assume, from what you have just written and from what Charlemagne has just written earlier that you agree with the statement I just made.

Now we can ask if you think that God had any choice about creating this person.

If He didn’t then He must be restricted in some way and he is not omnipotent. If He did, then how do you think it reflects on God’s goodness and mercy that He purposely created someone whom He knows will suffer eternal torment?
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Why do you say God knew before? He knows him always.
Ontologically, not in time, God has a choice. Once the choice is made to create the person. It is irrational to think that He cannot/will not create a person He has created.
We truly have free will. Once we are in existence we decide what will be our relationship with God, will we or will we not be loving people.
 
Bradski said:
And if that person ends up in hell, then God knew that before He ‘brings him into creation’. He creates him knowing that he will choose hell.
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FTFY

Again the accuracy in your phrasing is lacking.
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Bradski:
I’ll assume, from what you have just written and from what Charlemagne has just written earlier that you agree with the statement I just made.

Now we can ask if you think that God had any choice about creating this person.

If He didn’t then He must be restricted in some way and he is not omnipotent.
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Omnipotence means that God is not limited by anything outside of Himself. If God limits Himself, that necessarily presupposes omnipotence.
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Bradski:
If He did, then how do you think it reflects on God’s goodness and mercy that He purposely created someone whom He knows will suffer eternal torment?
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It doesn’t. God’s goodness and mercy cannot exempt people who refuse to accept it and/or chose to act contrary to it. God’s love and goodness is true, it’s not blind.

“In creating beings with free will, Omnipotence form the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat. What you call a defeat, I call a miracle; for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astonishing and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity.”(C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain, chpt 8).
 
Charlemagne_III said:
You didn’t answer my question. You are evasive? 😉 Try again?

By not believing in God, do you think we are doing good?

Or let me re-phrase it.

Do you think we are doing good when we refuse to believe in God?
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Good Evening Charlemagne: I haven’t been evasive with you. To me you seem to be trying to view the grand canyon through a paper towel tube when you ask questions like that. In and of itself, I don’t think that believing in God or not believing in God is either doing good or doing bad. It is simply believing or disbelieving in accordance with your ability to reason. What you do with what you believe is another matter altogether.

Thank you,
Gary
 
Amandil said:
Omnipotence means that God is not limited by anything outside of Himself. If God limits Himself, that necessarily presupposes omnipotence.
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Good Evening Amandi: What you have posited is a tangled hierarchy or what is more commonly referred to as “strange loop.” In effect you have said that a God who can do anything can in fact create a stone that He Himself cannot lift.

Again, and as always, I use the term “He” as a linguistic expedient.

Thank you
Gary
 
Aloysium said:
God has a choice.
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So in some cases, God’s choice was/is/will be (insert whatever tense you want to use to describe the time period in which God makes this choice or just assume it happens outside time, inside infinity or just around the corner from eternity) to create someone whom He knew would end up in hell.

For heaven’s sake…how many times must this be pointed out before someone says: Yes, that’s stating the bleedin’ obvious.
Amandil said:
It doesn’t. God’s goodness and mercy cannot exempt people who refuse to accept it and/or chose to act contrary to it. God’s love and goodness is true, it’s not blind.
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They may well refuse, but the point is, which you all seem to be dancing around and looking the other way when it is pointed out to you, when God created those people He Did So Knowing That They Would Refuse.
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
. . . I don’t think that believing in God or not believing in God is either doing good or doing bad. . .
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It wasn’t the question, but believing God is better than not believing God, because it reflects one’s relationship with Him.

And, that is what it is all about.
 
Bradski said:
So in some cases, God’s choice was/is/will be (insert whatever tense you want to use to describe the time period in which God makes this choice or just assume it happens outside time, inside infinity or just around the corner from eternity) to create someone whom He knew would end up in hell.

For heaven’s sake…how many times must this be pointed out before someone says: Yes, that’s stating the bleedin’ obvious.

They may well refuse, but the point is, which you all seem to be dancing around and looking the other way when it is pointed out to you, when God created those people He Did So Knowing That They Would Refuse.
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It seems that unless one knows God, one is incapable of understanding eternity. It does not exist outside of Him.
There’s been no dancing around; I tried really hard to make the point.
However you choose to believe, you should know the Christian position. I will pray for you to grow in understanding, a gift of the Holy Spirit. You may read this as condescending, but I’m telling you anyway.
 
Aloysium said:
You may read this as condescending, but I’m telling you anyway.
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I don’t treat it as condescending and I just want to take a moment to thank you for your good thoughts.

But do you agree or not that God knows when He creates someone if that person is going or hell or not?

Forget eternity or God’s infinite love. Just give me a yes or a no.
 
Bradski said:
They may well refuse, but the point is, which you all seem to be dancing around and looking the other way when it is pointed out to you, when God created those people He Did So Knowing That They Would Refuse.
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So? That doesn’t make God evil, nor does it make the act of creating them evil, it makes them foolish in that they chose to do evil against themselves.
 
Gary_Sheldrake said:
Good Evening Amandi: What you have posited is a tangled hierarchy or what is more commonly referred to as “strange loop.” In effect you have said that a God who can do anything can in fact create a stone that He Himself cannot lift.

Again, and as always, I use the term “He” as a linguistic expedient.

Thank you
Gary
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Nonsense.
 
Amandil said:
So? That doesn’t make God evil, nor does it make the act of creating them evil, it makes them foolish in that they chose to do evil against themselves.
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Now that it seems people have more or less conceded the point I wanted to make, I am satisfied and shall take my leave. But first, a comment: What you have been defending this whole time, Amandil, is the moral equivalent of grabbing someone’s arm, striking them about the face with their own hand, and chiding them for hitting themselves.

That’s what condemning beings whose actions have been pre-determined by the accuser amounts to: the playground pastime of “stop hitting yourself” on a cosmic scale.
 
Oreoracle said:
Now that it seems people have more or less conceded the point I wanted to make, I am satisfied and shall take my leave. But first, a comment: What you have been defending this whole time, Amandil, is the moral equivalent of grabbing someone’s arm, striking them about the face with their own hand, and chiding them for hitting themselves.

That’s what condemning beings whose actions have been pre-determined by the accuser amounts to: the playground pastime of “stop hitting yourself” on a cosmic scale.
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Well put…it’s one of the main reasons for my change of alignment.
 
Oreoracle said:
Now that it seems people have more or less conceded the point I wanted to make, I am satisfied and shall take my leave. But first, a comment: What you have been defending this whole time, Amandil, is the moral equivalent of grabbing someone’s arm, striking them about the face with their own hand, and chiding them for hitting themselves.

That’s what condemning beings whose actions have been pre-determined by the accuser amounts to: the playground pastime of “stop hitting yourself” on a cosmic scale.
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Another strawman. :rolleyes:
 
Aloysium said:
It wasn’t the question, but believing God is better than not believing God, because it reflects one’s relationship with Him.

And, that is what it is all about.
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Good Morning Amandil: If you go back and read the question, it was in regards to whether or not disbelief is an inherently bad act and belief is an inherently good act. If we are going to have a discussion, we need to stay focused.

As to whether believe is good, it is really all dependent on what we do with our belief. Many people have suffered and died because of the beliefs of other people, and as Catholics we should be especially aware of this. And when people die or suffer because of our beliefs or anyone else’s, our beliefs become an enabler to evil. This is clearly evident throughout history.

Thank you,
Gary
 
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