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tonyrey
Guest
God kills no one. He created us and allows us to die naturally - unless man kills us.
Do you have a death wish?
We are free to think what we like - as your questions and statements demonstrate!
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Amandil
Guest
God did not create death. We courted death by rejecting Reality and accepting unreality through our free choice to sin.
What God created He created in love and in which he desired never to perish.
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newenglandsun
Guest
If you read the USCCB commentary, you will find that the death talked about in Wisdom is spiritual death, not physical death. He desires no one be apart from him.
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Amandil
Guest
Where did I ever say that He did desire some to be apart from Him?
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ThunderFox
Guest
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7
God here is saying he creates evil, so regardless of the other verses it is god here saying he creates evil. This is another unpopular doctrine people dont like but it is nonetheless true
—Isaiah 45:7
God here is saying he creates evil, so regardless of the other verses it is god here saying he creates evil. This is another unpopular doctrine people dont like but it is nonetheless true
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Amandil
Guest
You really ought to be careful about what you attribute to the divinity:
Isaiah 45:[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.(RSV)
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe; I the Lord, do all these things."(NAB)
You’re refusing to make a distinction in reference to the context, namely God’s permissive will and His active will.
God permits “evil”(physical evils), for the sake of greater goods.
Ultimately, if God’s creation had never chosen evil, He would never have needed to permit it.
And if God had created us without free will so that we would never chose evil, He would never have had to permit evil in the first place.
But that would mean that we would not be created in His image and likeness; love necessarily requires that we choose freely to love.
Either way, you’re misinterpreting the passage.
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oldcelt
Guest
It is always a misinterpretation when it doesn’t match one’s vision of the almighty. Therein lies the dangers of the sacred books, particularly those in the OT. Many, many were originally passed down through oral tradition…then translated multiple times.Woe, or evil you have the almighty permitting misfortune for his people that he always knew he would permit.
This comes after he creates Satan and all the other Angels, 1/3 of whom rebel. God captures them, but somehow this evil escapes, or was it intentionally let go? That whole episode is a wee bit murky.
The point is that evil existed before man according to the timeline. It could not have existed without God creating it unless you are willing to assign creative powers to someone else. Who might that be, because I don’t have a clue?
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Sarmad
Guest
Let me start out by saying I’m not an expert in philosophy or theology and I believe if your truly searching for an answer to this you should ask an apologist. For my own understanding, I want to analyze this. I will separate things you said for my sake in understanding it. The definitions below come from google.
This is basically what you are saying:
*I’m going to reword this 5th claim so that it can make sense to me:
Evil actions exist and God was aware of the sources that would cause evil in creation. Therefore, God was cognitively open to such sources.
God is all knowing. He gave man and angels (creation) free will. Free will gives creation the option of committing evil actions and turning away from God or committing good actions and becoming more like God (Moral goodness). God knew that man and angels could commit evil actions, but permitted the sources of evil actions anyway. This is nothing knew.
But why would God permit sources of evil actions? For more information on that, take a look at the CCC. catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=1764
For a better understanding of free will, take a look at the CCC. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm
Bahman, make sure you know the definitions of the terms you are using. It would help you immensely wherever your religious views may go
And more than that, remember, you are not dealing with a God that was made up over night, you are dealing with a God whose very nature had been contemplated for many centuries by scholars of all fields! There is a reason so many believe in the God of Abraham. His nature makes sense of the reality of world we live in.
If what you stated is different than my interpretation of what you stated, please enlighten me on what you meant.
Thank you for all the new knowledge you helped me acquire through this process! May God bless you in this new year and in your faithful journey, wherever it may go!
This is basically what you are saying:
- God is omniscient (all-knowing). Yup
- God is cognitively (knowingly) open to free will. Yup
- God knows the decision we perform in a situation. Yup
a) God is cognitively open to free will. Yup
b) God is cognitively open to the situation. Yup
c) God is cognitively open to creation. Yup - a) Creation was performed by first cause (a supposed ultimate cause of all events, which does not itself have a cause (i.e. God)) Yup
b) God was cognitively open to first cause (God). Obviously
- a) Evil exist… (does it?)
Evil is not a being, its an action. So if you mean people commit evil actions, then yup.
b) …God was aware of the source of evil in first cause…
In other words, you are saying God was aware of the source of evil in God. This is not a true statement because God is Moral Goodness. I assume you are trying to say: God is aware of the source(s) that would trigger evil actions in creation (humans and angels, creation that is able to commit evil actions).
c) …since it was cognitively open to it.
*I’m going to reword this 5th claim so that it can make sense to me:
Evil actions exist and God was aware of the sources that would cause evil in creation. Therefore, God was cognitively open to such sources.
- God created evil.
More like permitted triggers of evil actions in creation.
God is all knowing. He gave man and angels (creation) free will. Free will gives creation the option of committing evil actions and turning away from God or committing good actions and becoming more like God (Moral goodness). God knew that man and angels could commit evil actions, but permitted the sources of evil actions anyway. This is nothing knew.
But why would God permit sources of evil actions? For more information on that, take a look at the CCC. catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=1764
For a better understanding of free will, take a look at the CCC. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm
Bahman, make sure you know the definitions of the terms you are using. It would help you immensely wherever your religious views may go
And more than that, remember, you are not dealing with a God that was made up over night, you are dealing with a God whose very nature had been contemplated for many centuries by scholars of all fields! There is a reason so many believe in the God of Abraham. His nature makes sense of the reality of world we live in.If what you stated is different than my interpretation of what you stated, please enlighten me on what you meant.
Thank you for all the new knowledge you helped me acquire through this process! May God bless you in this new year and in your faithful journey, wherever it may go!
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tonyrey
Guest
The notion that an infinitely loving Father created evil is clearly absurd. Only Fundamentalists believe every statement in the Old Testament is literally true.
There is no mention of darkness from light because it is simply the absence of light.
All goodness comes from God’s love and all evil is the absence of God’s love caused by the abuse of free will.
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tonyrey
Guest
Let me start out by saying I’m not an expert in philosophy or theology and I believe if your truly searching for an answer to this you should ask an apologist. For my own understanding, I want to analyze this. I will separate things you said for my sake in understanding it. The definitions below come from google.
This is basically what you are saying:
*You are basically repeating that God is all-knowing it seems.
- God is omniscient (all-knowing). Yup
- God is cognitively (knowingly) open to free will. Yup
- God knows the decision we perform in a situation. Yup
a) God is cognitively open to free will. Yup
b) God is cognitively open to the situation. Yup
c) God is cognitively open to creation. Yup- a) Creation was performed by first cause (a supposed ultimate cause of all events, which does not itself have a cause (i.e. God)) Yup
b) God was cognitively open to first cause (God). Obviously
*I’m not talking about physical evil here, like natural disasters or anything because I don’t assume you are referring to that.
- a) Evil exist… (does it?)
Evil is not a being, its an action. So if you mean people commit evil actions, then yup.
b) …God was aware of the source of evil in first cause…
In other words, you are saying God was aware of the source of evil in God. This is not a true statement because God is Moral Goodness. I assume you are trying to say: God is aware of the source(s) that would trigger evil actions in creation (humans and angels, creation that is able to commit evil actions).
c) …since it was cognitively open to it.
*I’m going to reword this 5th claim so that it can make sense to me:
Evil actions exist and God was aware of the sources that would cause evil in creation. Therefore, God was cognitively open to such sources.
So I assume your overall statement would be:
- God created evil.
More like permitted triggers of evil actions in creation.
God is all knowing. He gave man and angels (creation) free will. Free will gives creation the option of committing evil actions and turning away from God or committing good actions and becoming more like God (Moral goodness). God knew that man and angels could commit evil actions, but permitted the sources of evil actions anyway. This is nothing knew.
But why would God permit sources of evil actions? For more information on that, take a look at the CCC. catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=1764
For a better understanding of free will, take a look at the CCC. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm
Bahman, make sure you know the definitions of the terms you are using. It would help you immensely wherever your religious views may go
If what you stated is different than my interpretation of what you stated, please enlighten me on what you meant.
Thank you for all the new knowledge you helped me acquire through this process! May God bless you in this new year and in your faithful journey, wherever it may go!
This is the vital point:
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newenglandsun
Guest
Isaiah 45:7 goes back to a comment I made about one of the deities in Zoroastrianism (Angra-Manyu). This particular part of the book of Isaiah was probably written in the time of the Babylonian exile. Even the USCCB agrees. What did this author have that Zoroastrianism didn’t? He had a universal God who made everything. The Manichean heresy pretty much adopted Zoroastrianism. Good god vs. bad god.
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oldcelt
Guest
Talk about an easy job, “Theologist.” You analyze old texts, give an opinion and no one can prove you wrong because you can’t interview the subject. You can make up terms like passive and active will, you can declare a God to be all good when you have not one parcel of evidence to prove it and proceed to place all the blame on your fellow men.
It’s better than being a weatherman.
It’s better than being a weatherman.
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Amandil
Guest
If you don’t want me to point out the fallacious nature of your arguments, why do bother replying to something that I post?
You draw absolutely no distinctions and make absurd statements about cosmology an God’s nature which are completely false. And to explain it would be an obvious waste of my time.
Red herring.
More circular logic…
Begging the question and circular logic.
You draw absolutely no distinctions and make absurd statements about cosmology an God’s nature which are completely false. And to explain it would be an obvious waste of my time.
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Amandil
Guest
Regardless of the setting with which it was written, you’re not drawing any distinctions with regards to the context.
I was recently in a discussion with a fundamentalist who insisted that God is corporeal because of the Biblical references to God having body parts. He completely disregarded the fact that they were anthropomorphisms, not to be taken in a literalist sense.
We have to be careful about examining human expressions and make sure that they are consistent with God’s true nature.
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oldcelt
Guest
.
So, how is pointing out the excessive use of the misinterpretation excuse a Red Herring?
How is relating the biblical account of Satan’s creation by God and showing how people have retranslated the Bible circular logic?
Finally, showing that evil existed before man in the form of an entity created by God is neither begging the question or circular logic…it is just using the Biblical account again. If God didn’t create it WHO did? Man neither existed nor are we capable of supernatural creation.
You are the one who is trying to avoid answering; I don’t blame you; by flashing a list of fallacy terms where they don’t apply and then attempting to insult me, probably hoping I will back off.
I stand pat.
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Amandil
Guest
Because that’s not even what you did. You didn’t make an argument, you simply resorted to a biased attack.
You did nothing even addressing approaches or methods of interpretation and how, according to your assumption, my methods or interpretation is incorrect.
You simply asserted something without reason according to nothing but your biased assumption.
Not only that, your assumption is irrelevant. My comments weren’t directed to you.
Because you are assuming your own conclusion in your argument. You’re not drawing any distinctions, but are rather basing everything on your biased opinions, not on proper cosmology or the truth of God’s nature.
God created Lucifer in goodness, out of the sheer generosity of HIs love.
The ONLY reason why you can make a judgment about the “evil” of Satan is because of that fact. IOW the ONLY reason why the Satan is SO evil is because he was such a GOOD thing gone bad.
In either case, God didn’t create the evil that Satan CHOSE to commit.
Whatever you say, dude. You, without warrant, responded to a post that was never directed to you, attacking right off the bat with baseless assertions, and now you’re trying to play the victim.
Earlier you also played the victim,
IOW, you want to eat your cake and have it too. No one can point out your logical inconsistencies, but you’re apparently free to take all the pot-shots you want.
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oldcelt
Guest
Not wanting to turn this into a bloodbath, if neither Satan nor God created evil, since man was not around? WHO DID? It’s there, it’s even incarnate…who did it?Because that’s not even what you did. You didn’t make an argument, you simply resorted to a biased attack.
You did nothing even addressing approaches or methods of interpretation and how, according to your assumption, my methods or interpretation is incorrect.
You simply asserted something without reason according to nothing but your biased assumption.
Not only that, your assumption is irrelevant. My comments weren’t directed to you.
Because you are assuming your own conclusion in your argument. You’re not drawing any distinctions, but are rather basing everything on your biased opinions, not on proper cosmology or the truth of God’s nature.
God created Lucifer in goodness, out of the sheer generosity of HIs love.
The ONLY reason why you can make a judgment about the “evil” of Satan is because of that fact. IOW the ONLY reason why the Satan is SO evil is because he was such a GOOD thing gone bad.
**In either case, God didn’t create the evil that Satan CHOSE to commit. **
Whatever you say, dude. You, without warrant, responded to a post that was never directed to you, attacking right off the bat with baseless assertions, and now you’re trying to play the victim.
Earlier you also played the victim,
IOW, you want to eat your cake and have it too. No one can point out your logical inconsistencies, but you’re apparently free to take all the pot-shots you want.
BTW, the logical inconsistencies and fallacies are an invention of your view of them. A quick review should help you there. This is a forum…not a gathering point for one-on-one conversation. Everyone should know that statements are made at your own peril.
meltzerboy
New member
I still don’t see a problem here. Let’s say that G-d created mankind with the free will to choose good or evil. Although mankind was created in the image and likeness of G-d, this does not mean we were created as miniature gods. We are not perfect the way G-d is, never were from the beginning with Adam and Eve, and never will be. G-d instilled in us the capacity for good and the capacity for evil. Does this mean G-d created evil? In a sense, perhaps indirectly, since He created us with that capacity; but it is our job to overcome this tendency and, by so doing, draw closer to G-d. G-d did not make it easy for us, and this is of course intentional for the easy path is never the most rewarding. With regard to HaSatan, Judaism–unlike Christianity and Islam–does not consider Satan evil; in fact, it does not believe any of the angels has the free will bestowed upon mankind. But I’ve discussed this perspective on other threads.
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oldcelt
Guest
I agree with you, He did. The next big question is why. Experiment, entertainment, to be loved? Why did it become our responsibility to overcome a trait that the Almighty put in us without our consent?
Please remember, I don’t believe that the God we’ve been describing even exists. From your explanations, Judaism is much closer to my beliefs.
meltzerboy
New member
Why do good parents not give their children everything they desire and free them from all chores and responsibilities in life? To teach them how to become responsible and mature adults who can learn to meet the many challenges of life by making rational choices, helping themselves and comforting others. G-d expects no less from us.
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