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AJV
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Well actually as Ceasar indicated above, the complete vernacular missal was a modern innovation under Pius IX. In mediaevel times, there were parts of the Ordinary of the Mass printed in books but not a complete missal by any means.
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Linnyo
Guest
lol - will they teach me how to speak the language?
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iamrefreshed
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Am I reading your post correctly? You do not believe celibacy should be required of priests?
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LilyM
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Not blindness, illiteracy, as I’ve discussed in another thread.
How many people could even read, prior to say 1850, to be able to USE a Missal? Less than one-third at the very best - and the majority of those were probably only ‘literate’ to the extent that they could sign their own name to documents, nothing more.
Certainly Missals helped this vast majority of people not a bit.
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Linnyo
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This is a very relevant point. And at one time, ordinary people were discouraged form owning a Bible and reading it.
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Isa_Almisry
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I’ve heard and seen a lot of otherwise in the Latin church, and the phrase I picked is exactly an example of that: during the Western captivity it made it into the Orthodox service books (to combat Protestant ideas).
In the East, when the traditional absoltion prayers state "no one forgives sins but God alone, but through that divinely spoken Word ‘whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven…’, I, his unworthy priest, declare unto to the forgiveness of all your sins…
At baptism “The Servant of God, X, IS baptized in the Name…”
The wedding couple do not marry each other, but Christ through the priest.
At Eucharist, the Divine Liturgy starts with the deacon telling the priest “The time has come for the Lord to act.” (Psalm 119).
And when the Great Canon approaches…
look favorably upon me, Thy sinful and unprofitable servant, and cleanse my heart and soul of an evil conscience, and by power of Thy Holy Spirit, enable me, clothed with the grace of the priesthood, to stand before this Thy holy altar, and offer the sacrifice of Thy sacred and most pure body and precious blood. With bowed head, I approach Thee and implore Thee, turn not Thy face away from me, nor exclude me from among Thy children, but allow these gifts to be offered to Thee by me, Thy sinful and unworthy servant; for it is Thou, O Christ, our God, Who offer and are offered, who receive and are received, and to Thee we render glory, with Thy eternal Father
Now, I have also seen and heard enoug in the Latin church, that if we had to spell it out, we both agree that Christ is Who effects the sacraments, not the bishops nor priests. I remember a priest on EWTN talking about why the mass was such a great work “Because it is GOD’s work, so man’s work cannot compare.”
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Dauphin
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If they’re not fully literate, this would seem to be a reasonable and prudent recommendation.
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Dauphin
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So it isn’t fine for me to attend a Traditional Latin Mass? That seems to be what you’re saying. You’re telling me that the Mass has no value for me. That’s incredibly arrogant.
Latin is the official ecclesial language and has been ordained by the Holy Spirit as such. Its value has already been discussed at length in this thread. Read over the previous posts.
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Dauphin
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No. They’ll teach you to respect it.
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Isa_Almisry
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Who does? Who can?
Can we explain the mystery?
I confess I cannot get very worked about eucharistic miracles (blood, etc.) as it happens every Sunday. I’m just amazed the the earth doesn’t shatter.
The Indian Orthodox, when the priest elevates the Host says “Behold I hold up Him Who upholds the four corners of the universe.”
But it seems her son understands. “That’s Jesus.”
Someone on the Eastern Forum stated that a three year old (we have infant communion, the ancient practice of the Church) goes around their Church, hugging the people who didn’t commune, “so God will rub off on them.” She understands.
Unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
The gnostics were the ones who restricted Heaven to the learned.
I don’t think Hell has many children, but it has a surplus of theologians.
Btw. God bless you for your defense of your latest convert!
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iamrefreshed
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And what of the arrogance of your posts to our new convert?
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Dauphin
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I’m sure people developed an understanding even without Missals - especially since they were raised with this Mass. It really isn’t that complex.
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Caesar
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Can we please pull ourselves away from that old cliche that says you can’t understand the Mass when you are unable to completely understand the language it is spoken in? I’m willing to bet that more people understood the Latin Mass when they hardly spoke a word of Latin then understand the Novus Ordo in their own language. Recall Bishop Trautman’s desire for a more simplistic english translation of the Novus Ordo on the basis that Catholics today are too dumb to understand the forthcoming translations?
The issue of understanding goes far beyond language. You can have all the vernacular Masses you want, but they mean nothing without proper doctrinal and liturgical formation. Furthermore, language has no bearing on the spirituality of the Mass.
The issue of understanding goes far beyond language. You can have all the vernacular Masses you want, but they mean nothing without proper doctrinal and liturgical formation. Furthermore, language has no bearing on the spirituality of the Mass.
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Dauphin
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Would you drop that, already?
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Dauphin
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Exactly!
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Dauphin
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Let’s remember, too, that nobody’s forcing you to attend the Extraordinary Form. You, and any potential converts, are perfectly entitled to attend the Ordinary Form if you are so averse to the Church’s most ancient traditions.
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Isa_Almisry
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We don’t. The priest is in persona episcopi, the bishop is the ordinary minister of the Holy Mysteries. The episcopate is the means by which the one priesthood of Christ is administered.
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Walking_Home
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I don’t know whether it is true that ordinary people were discouraged from owning and reading the bible—but going with that thought—and LilyM’s statement----What were they to do with a bible----Have a protestant interpret it for them.
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Linnyo
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That’s fine but some people would like all Masses to be in Latin. I am not really averse to Latin - just being awkward but I do think that some people forget that many people are not conversant in Latin meaning that they are unlikely to have any understanding of it. But then again, the Holy Spirit might descend upon them and give them the gift of interpretting tongues. Doctors and botanists should be OK since Latin should be familiar due to all the plant names and ilness names.
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