M
MarysLurker
Guest
But no doctrine, other than Papal authority and maybe Trinitarian procession, changed at that time.
- Status
A
AussieGirl
Guest
I am in a very similar situation, except that I was raised Catholic, left (becoming agnostic and then Protestant), and am considering returning. It saddens me that God seems to be answering my prayers in Protestant ways, and I have gone from a place of wishing I wasn’t Catholic to hoping it’s okay to be one (at least so that it’s not evil)! I, too, have had a former Catholic friend talk of having a dream about Mary statues turning into demons (I know that’s not the same dream as in your story, but it’s a similar gist). I also have a strong need to defend Catholicism even though I myself have been against it in the past.
I do consider that it might not be the right time for me to come to full assent of the church’s teachings in light of some life circumstances (but in a few months’ time it might be better timing), but I really don’t know. I’ve been told to go before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and pray, read, tell Him my fears/angst, and be patient.
You’re not alone, and I’m relieved to know I’m not either
I do consider that it might not be the right time for me to come to full assent of the church’s teachings in light of some life circumstances (but in a few months’ time it might be better timing), but I really don’t know. I’ve been told to go before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and pray, read, tell Him my fears/angst, and be patient.
You’re not alone, and I’m relieved to know I’m not either
A
AussieGirl
Guest
Awesome article!!! Thanks for sharing!
As others have already mentioned, God doesn’t lead people to confusion. The devil does that. The devil doesn’t want anyone to enter the Catholic Church so he tries to spread doubt to those thinking about entering the Catholic Church.
God will never lead you away from the Catholic Church. Remember that.
God will never lead you away from the Catholic Church. Remember that.
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
We have our problems in the Church. And I’ll just be blunt and say that Mariology reform is one of them. The teachings are correct but the way they are delivered need adjustment. And there are a certain faction within the Church who, ignorantly, worship Mary. I’ve actually seen one guy here flat out admit it; which blew my mind. He and others need correction. Catechesis is a problem for us.
But if you know Jesus and you understand Church teaching you will not have a problem. In fact, you will find Jesus everywhere in the Catholic Church. You will find him in the Word…you will find him in the Eucharist…you will find him through the priest in confession…and you will find Him through the body of Christ.
The draw you are experiencing is real. I had it, so did many other converts here. Did God want us to go to hell by joining the Church if it truly is apostate as these dreams you speak of seem to imply? Or maybe, He drew us to the Church because it’s the only one started in 33 A.D…it is His crown jewel and he wants us, the laity, to make it better.
I would register for RCIA and take a look. There’s zero commitment expected and probably a ton of good food involved
There you can have questions answered in person and get to know some good Catholics who know their faith.
But if you know Jesus and you understand Church teaching you will not have a problem. In fact, you will find Jesus everywhere in the Catholic Church. You will find him in the Word…you will find him in the Eucharist…you will find him through the priest in confession…and you will find Him through the body of Christ.
The draw you are experiencing is real. I had it, so did many other converts here. Did God want us to go to hell by joining the Church if it truly is apostate as these dreams you speak of seem to imply? Or maybe, He drew us to the Church because it’s the only one started in 33 A.D…it is His crown jewel and he wants us, the laity, to make it better.
I would register for RCIA and take a look. There’s zero commitment expected and probably a ton of good food involved
There you can have questions answered in person and get to know some good Catholics who know their faith.
M
MarysLurker
Guest
Have you ever asked a Protestant church about their Christology?
“Is Mary the Theotokos?”
“Huh?”
“Is Mary the Mother of God?”
“No way! We aren’t Catholic! She is just the mother of the man Christ Jesus.”
“You’re a Nestorian.”
“Huh?”
“Who died for your sins, God or a man?”
“The Son of God, but not God Himself.”
“You’re an Adoptionist.”
“Huh?”
“That was God dying on the cross for you.”
“Well, if you read the PLAIN TEXT OF THE BIBLE (they always get in your face like that) you’ll see that He was crying out to God that He had forsaken Him. God wanted to be up there but He clearly didn’t want to…”
“You’re a Miaphysite.”
And on and on…
After Calvary, there’s 1000 years with no changes in doctrine. Then the Orthodox split with no changes other than papal primacy and maybe succession in the Trinity. 500 years later, the Protestants split changing everything.
Yes, that’s black and white, but that’s also exactly what happened. That’s an indisputable historical fact. The question is how could God promise and pray (1 Tim 2:3-4, John 17) that the Church would be united and not lose the truth and then supposedly let it happen?
M
MarysLurker
Guest
He probably just misunderstood your question or used the English word “worship” in its historical sense of giving honor. To this day you still call magistrate judges in the UK “Your Worship.” Use of the term “worship” into a synonym for “latria” or “adoration” (the worship due to God alone) is a very recent phenomenon. Many historical Catholic books talk about worshipping Mary in those terms, and exactly ZERO of them mean latria or adoration.
I have yet to ever see these alleged Neo-Collrydians who actually believe that Mary is a 4th Person of the Holy Trinity. No Catholic crosses themselves and says “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and of the Virgin Mary.” Show me anybody who does that. And while you’re at it, show me Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, La Llorona, the Kraken, and the Leprechaun and his pot of gold.
M
MarysLurker
Guest
I see from your profile you’re drawn to Calvinism. Have you considered this?
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
So some woman claims to have a dream.
Lots of people have dreams about lots of things.
I’ve had dreams where I committed terrible sins. Should I use that as a guide for decision-making?
Lots of people have dreams about lots of things.
I’ve had dreams where I committed terrible sins. Should I use that as a guide for decision-making?
T
Techno2000
Guest
A
adf417
Guest
Based on other people’s interpretation of “worship” we do worship Mary. I would be willing to bet his interpretation of worship did not fit the church’s teaching on worship. It is very possible the onus of catechesis is on those who think they worship Mary.
Peace!!!
A
ATraveller
Guest
A bit. I wouldn’t elevate it to the level of the Creeds nor do I fully agree to a lot of the positions expressed in the Confessions.
Some of replies you got addresses them.
Calvinists believe there’s no free will in choosing God. There’s free will in everything else, at least for the majority of Calvinists.
Oddly enough, the conservative Reformed churches are stable or even growing.
I don’t think that’s true. Even a small remnant of Mainline Protestantism will exist for a long time.
Even in Canada and extremely secular England, different Evangelical churches are doing OK, tend to be quite young and it’s not only immigration that’s helping them with their numbers but it definitely helps add to the underlying growth. It’s a competition between the Charismatics and Reformed wings of Evangelicalism. Of course Evangelicalism is very small portion in our countries but we aren’t shrinking in numerical terms in any sense!
Last edited:
M
MarysLurker
Guest
Yes. A My concern (as expressed in the gap thread) is that Calvinism has an “evil problem”:
In that case, the population of hell should be zero because God wills everyone to be saved. (1 Tim 2:3-4). But we can go to the end of the Bible and see that’s not the case. So while Calvinism can explain the 1,500 year no-Church gap by assigning everyone in the gap to the reprobate category, the price for that is to pin the blame on their damnation on God, this making Him evil. Let’s face it: A god who creates people to chuck them into hell for no fault of their own is not the God of the Bible Who is Love, and no amount of wordsmithing will change that.
But you likely are considering Calvinism because you realize Arminianism has problems too, chief among them being the gap. Like all Protestants, Arminians hold to Sola Fide. But how do you get Fide if there is none during that 1,500 year gap? You have Sola Gratia but not Sola Fide. So you go with Calvinism, which gives you both but not enough and that’s God’s fault. So the choice is between wrong and even more wrong.
But that’s from sheep-stealing, not evangelization. There’s a trend towards Calvinism in Evangelicalism and the growth of Reformed churches so reflects, but the end game is a bunch of kids going off to college in an age even more secularized than now, believing God is Love but doesn’t love everybody, and trying to defend that with Reformed apologetics which is just presuppositionalism (I don’t have to prove Christianity is true, I’ll just disprove materialism by assuming the Bible is true and automatically beats science.). That’s a disaster, and I’m speaking from personal experience there. So those Reformed churches will fall even faster than they rose.
But again, where is the growth coming from? I seriously doubt you have a bunch of unchurched people pouring in. They’re just other Christians… both immigrant and native Christians, such as Catholics won over by the Reformed movement, seduced into abandoning 2,000 years worth of apologetics against atheism and secularism by the promise of a simple monergistic faith which, in the end, will surrender to secularism. You’re not gonna be able to defend Calvinism from a multigenerational secularist/Marxist culture and academy, because they’re actually right that a god who cranks out damned souls is no god at all.
Last edited:
A
ATraveller
Guest
A lot of people underestimate how much effort Reformed groups put into evangelising. It rivals that of the Charismatics. If people are surprised Calvinists go and reach out instead of doing nothing, then maybe they need to realize they may have misunderstood what they believe.
And sure, there are people who join them from other denominations.
They may or may not fall but conservative Reformed churches are big on catechising so that needs to be considered. Doctrine is important for them and remarkably, they haven’t shrunk.
Are there unchurched people entering? There definitely are. Not droves but a lot more than people would imagine and enough leaving other denominations green with envy. Would our numbers double in the next 5 years? No. I’m realistic. The most probable scenario is small growth.
Last edited:
M
MarysLurker
Guest
I’m not. I heard a story on Catholic Answers Live one time about an undergrad student who became known as THE CALVINATOR for how he would walk around his college and win people over with arguments based on monergism. Calvinism is very attractive to a Protestant who grew up hearing “give God all the glory!” in songs and sermons all his/her life. The problem is it does so by denying His perfection and goodness.
A
AussieGirl
Guest
(Ah, internet issues, have tried to respond to this specific comment a number of times and then accidentally replied to the whole thread - hope it didn’t keep reposting and that I’m not breaking some kind of forum rules here; I’m a newbie! I think we’re okay though…)
It took me a while to find a translation that says “she” (the woman/Mary) shall crush the serpent’s head. I did find it in the Douay-Rheims Challoner Revision 1752 and Catholic Public Domain Version. Some Catholic versions of the Bible say “he” (New Revised Standard Version - Catholic Interconfessional) or “her offspring” (Good News Bible - Catholic edition in Septuagint order). I’m going off the different versions available on my Bible app.
A brief look at other threads on this topic suggests that the pronoun can be interpreted in multiple ways; I myself don’t know any of the languages of Biblical texts.
It’s no wonder it’s a cause of confusion! I know, regardless, there is enmity between the serpent and Mary, but there still seems to be a big difference between Jesus crushing the serpent and Mary doing it… though I guess through Mary’s “yes” to God in bearing our Redeemer, we have the One who does indeed defeat sin.
It took me a while to find a translation that says “she” (the woman/Mary) shall crush the serpent’s head. I did find it in the Douay-Rheims Challoner Revision 1752 and Catholic Public Domain Version. Some Catholic versions of the Bible say “he” (New Revised Standard Version - Catholic Interconfessional) or “her offspring” (Good News Bible - Catholic edition in Septuagint order). I’m going off the different versions available on my Bible app.
A brief look at other threads on this topic suggests that the pronoun can be interpreted in multiple ways; I myself don’t know any of the languages of Biblical texts.
It’s no wonder it’s a cause of confusion! I know, regardless, there is enmity between the serpent and Mary, but there still seems to be a big difference between Jesus crushing the serpent and Mary doing it… though I guess through Mary’s “yes” to God in bearing our Redeemer, we have the One who does indeed defeat sin.
M
MarysLurker
Guest
In the USA, it’s a pretty similar story. The only healthy mainline denomination is the United Methodist Church (staunchly Arminian as all Wesleyans are). They just fought off a pro-LGBT coup attempt at their General Conference, so everyone expects them to split into a healthy but smaller continuing UMC with a strong international presence, and a larger (in the USA) liberal branch that will probably merge with the Episcopalians (the mainline Anglican Communion denomination here). Then you have the Evangelicals, who are going into a Calvinist/Pentecostal/Megachurch split.
The conservatives are coalescing into Calvinism, as you describe. I predict that because of the inability to deal with the problem of evil, the bubble kids who are raised in the Calvinist churches won’t be continuing it because our society isn’t getting any less atheistic and it’s impossible to defend a faith that teaches that God is evil.
The Pentecostals are steadily moving away from their distinctives (like dispensationalism and speaking in tongues) and merging with the Megachurches, which are exemplified by the likes of Joel Olsteen: great motivational speaker with zero theology. So it’s gonna be the same story with them, sadly. They don’t have a faith to defend.
Whoever does survive in Protestantism is either going to leave or wind up with the Methodists, and thence eventually to Catholicism. The historical Methodists were basically Catholics without orders, feigning compliance with the Anglican Articles of Religion to avoid getting guillotined by Bad Queen Bess (Elizabeth I). Serious Methodists who study the Bible eventually wind up confronting the gap and becoming Catholic (like me).
This will accelerate because the rising secular temperature of the world is going to put evolutionary selection pressure on Protestantism. Evolve to answer the LGBT/atheist tsunami, or get drowned by it. Besides defending itself, a church must produce marriages in order to survive. Entrusting your marriages to the whims of the Crown/government amid the rising anti-marriage tide is obviously not going to work. The sad fate of a child who does manage to survive secular college is to struggle or fail to find a mate.
So as the waters rise, Protestantism will slowly drown. Churches that drown will share the fate of the Episcopal Church in the USA which has 20 years left, maybe more if it merges with the liberal split from the UMC. And the Protestants who stand against the tide will collapse in the order of quality of apologetics. The megachurches have no defenses so they’re gone first. Other than them, Calvinism’s vulnerability to the problem of evil means it’s next. The Arminians (conservative UMC, continuing Anglicans, etc.) will be the last to go. In the end, everyone will either become Catholic, Orthodox or secular.
Last edited:
M
MarysLurker
Guest
Right. The He/she translation issue in the second part of Genesis 3:15 has no effect on the first part.
There isn’t that much difference between Jesus saying “I will crush your head, satan” and Him saying “My ultimate weapon will crush your head, satan.” Either way, Jesus is the One doing the crushing.
A
AussieGirl
Guest
Fair enough - I hadn’t thought of it in that way! Thanks!
M
mcq72
Guest
Yes I have. The answer follows to be Christ centered not Mary centered. As Mary herself would have it I am told.
- Status