God doesn't want me to be Catholic?

[MarysLurker]

Yes I have. The answer follows to be Christ centered not Mary centered. As Mary herself would have it I am told.

I didn’t ask about Mariology. I asked about Christology. If a church’s answer about Christology is to start talking about Catholicism and Mary, odds are its Christology is simply “we reject Catholicism so we reject titles like Mother of God…” That is Nestorianism. That’s a salvation-endangering heresy that denies the finished work of Christ.

And that’s only he beginning. If a church’s theology is simply “we’re against what Catholicism is for,” then the church potentially also rejects:

• Pro-Life
• Bioethics (e.g prohibit embryonic stem cell research and cloning)
• Marriage between one man and one woman
• Lifelong marriage
• Holy Communion
• Any kind of tradition

And you might say, “well we go by the Bible so we’d never reject any of that… except that last one, Tradition.” Well, if all you do is (1) go with whatever you can find in the Bible, (2) reject any kind of tradition, and (3) reject anything the Catholic Church supports, we know from the contraception movement that it’s only a matter of time until your church surrenders to the culture on matters of sexuality.

 

[mcq72]

I didn’t ask about Mariology. I asked about Christology. If a church’s answer about Christology is to start talking about Catholicism and Mary, odds are its Christology is simply “we reject Catholicism so we reject titles like Mother of God…” That is Nestorianism. That’s a salvation-endangering heresy that denies the finished work of Christ

Again, agreed to Christology discussion based on " Christology" not Mariology. Have not heard of anyone doing otherwise.

Now if you speak of asking questions on Mariology, even theotokos , that is something else. I dont know of anyone denying hypostatic union to avoid sounding “Catholic”. Not sure the whole Nestorian debate fits any discussion today. Nestorius himself was not against hypostatic union in the end. God bearer need not much explanation as “mother” of God might, and the latter was used only with understanding that God always was in Trinity form.

 

[MarysLurker]

Nestorius himself was not against hypostatic union in the end.

So he said, but the effect of saying Mary is only the mother/bearer of “the Christ” is to deny that “the Christ” is God… and to further deny that the sin debt of humanity has actually been paid. Either there is a hypostatic union or there wasn’t. Either the Person brought forth from the Virgin is consubstantial with the Father, or He isn’t. And that is why we use the Nicene Creed rather than the Apostles’ Creed at most (non kid) Masses. The Nicene Creed is much more precise on these matters. Does the church in question use the Nicene Creed, including the part about consubstantiality?

 

[ATraveller]

I don’t think the evidence is supporting you’re predictions. Protestantism, particularly confessional and evangelical denominations aren’t going anywhere.
You keep mentioning things that don’t match with what’s happening.

• You’re average churchgoer is just as likely to hold a degree as a non-churchgoer.
• Catholic churches and not conservative Protestant ones are vulnerable to secularism and even Marxism (on social issues). Even nominal conservative Protestants are more pro-life than your nominal Catholics.
• You continue to misrepresent what Calvinists believe.
• You make incredibly broad claims about Pentecostals and megachurches. There is no doubt many are light on theology but not all.
• The drift of Mainline Protestantism happened at the latest 1930’s not 20 or even 50 years ago.
• You seem to misunderstand what Evangelicalism is because it’s not a denomination in and of itself. It’s trans-denominational and always was.
• Pentecostals aren’t merging with megachurches, megachurches are an offspring of them and a number of them were Charismatic right from the start.

I struggle to understand the marriage part of your reply. If you mean we take orders from the government on marriage, the answer is no for conservative Protestants.

 

[MarysLurker]

Catholic churches and not conservative Protestant ones are vulnerable to secularism and even Marxism (on social issues). Even nominal conservative Protestants are more pro-life than your nominal Catholics.

If you can’t help but start talking about people in a discussion about doctrine, then Marx has already won.

You continue to misrepresent what Calvinists believe.

Calvinists believe that Christ did not die for all men. If you do not see what is wrong with that, then I’ve wasted my time here.

 

[ATraveller]

Calvinists believe that Christ did not die for all men. If you do not see what is wrong with that, then I’ve wasted my time here.

Some Calvinists. Calvinism is a collection of beliefs and forms a spectrum with Arminianism. Hence there are four point Calvinists who reject limited atonement. Then there are 3 and 4.5 point Calvinists and so on. Calvin wasn’t even the “founder” of Calvinism.

 

[MarysLurker]

Some Calvinists. Calvinism is a collection of beliefs and forms a spectrum with Arminianism. Hence there are four point Calvinists who reject limited atonement. Then there are 3 and 4.5 point Calvinists and so on. Calvin wasn’t even the “founder” of Calvinism.

Collections of beliefs and spectrums and endless debates about them aren’t going to stop the devil’s war on the family. But what will help is if I log off of this forum and stay off. Mother Teresa said that if you want to change the world, go home and love your family. So that’s what I’m going to do. God bless and take care.

If you can’t help but start talking about people in a discussion about doctrine , then Marx has already won.

P.S. If you wish, please read this.

 

[GKMotley]

The historical Methodists were basically Catholics without orders, feigning compliance with the Anglican Articles of Religion to avoid getting guillotined by Bad Queen Bess (Elizabeth I)

Can you explicate a little?

 

[MarysLurker]

Can you explicate a little?

Here you go (from Yale University).

https://historicalreview.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Groz.pdf

To be clear, what I said about historical Methodists being “Catholics without orders” derives from their Ariminian soteriology plus emphasis on Christian perfection, both of which are similar/analogous to what Catholics believe. As you can see, the movers and shakers in the Church of England agreed, and persecuted John Wesley and his followers as if they were Catholic.

I appreciate your interest, but I’m signing off for a while, maybe for good. Thanks for listening.

 

[Gorgias]

Hmm… 72 responses, but none from Hope7. Are you still there, @Hope7? Were any of the responses helpful for you?

Blessings,
G.

 

[mcq72]

So he said, but the effect of saying Mary is only the mother/bearer of “the Christ” is to deny that “the Christ” is God

Well, that may have applied to some thinkers 1700 years ago, but not today or with reformers. That is to say I do not know anyone in my circles who would say Christ is not God, just like you do not know anyone in your circles who say Mary birthed into existence the “I Am”.

Agree Nicene is much more explicit with Christology than Apostles Creed, just as I think theotokos is better translated “God bearer” than "mother of God ".

While I am sure there are a few churches here and there (amongst the 33,000) that have odd ball views on this, it is still a non issue, or strawman, for most P’s. One could also say there may be a few oddball Catholics on the issue also…so not sure why you bring this up at all.

 

[Hope7]

Yes, I’m here! I apologize–this is my first post in CAF. I was trying to let the dust settle a bit before I went in and responded, but I am going to do that now. I am both amazed and deeply grateful at all the thoughtful responses, and definitely want to answer them.

Blessings to you too,
Hope

 

[Hope7]

I suppose you’re right, and God could not be the one who gave here that dream. It just strikes me as troubling, since God “gives good gifts to the one who asks Him” (Matthew 7:11). Even if God didn’t give her the dream, I can’t quite understand why He’d allow her to have it after such an honest and pure plea from her. Does that make sense?

 

[Hope7]

Thank you, and blessing to you too. I hope and pray we both end up where we’re meant to be.

 

[Alightforalltosee]

YO, God isn’t the one confusing you. Confusion is the devil’s game. Coming from the new age I assure you that the devil will ONSLAUGHT you with so called ‘signs’ to deter you from a good path of God’s will. It is God’s will that all be a part of the church that Jesus literally started. If you choose not to be a part of it, you’re just missing out of the graces you could receive. As you have a hunger for the fullness of faith, come to the well!

Godspeed

 

[Alightforalltosee]

You got this! There’s a reason you’re chillin on a Catholic forum rn… What more reason do you need than the Catholic Church was started by Jesus Himself and others were started by men who thought they knew better?

 

[Hope7]

Wow, that is super interesting. Thank you for sharing

 

[GKMotley]

You are very welcome.

 

[Hope7]

Alright, CAF suggested that I post one big response instead of individual ones. So here goes.

First of all, thank you all for your thoughtful responses. It amazes me that so many people would take time to help me out, and I am sincerely grateful.

As far as my question, “Does God want me to be Catholic?” goes, I’m still not sure, though you’ve all certainly given me much to consider. On the one hand, I understand @Torolf (and many others) 's point that

If what the Catholic Church teaches is true and it really is the One Church founded by Christ then wouldn’t the devil do anything in his power to keep people away and pull faithful Catholics out of the faith?

This very well could be true; Satan could have given her that dream, or it even could have been her own imagination (like @meltzerboy2 said). However, it concerns me that after such an honest and pure plea, God would even allow this lady to have that dream, especially considering the scriptural promises like those of Matthew 7:7 & 11 ("“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you…how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!”). Does this trouble anyone else?

At the same time, I understand that the Bible does contain warnings about dreams, as @Todd_Easton pointed out. And I understand that this could be God testing me, and that this experience could be developing in me the virture of fortitude. (Thank you, @po18guy for this insight, and the link you shared of a women’s own difficult journey.) Finally, I definitely still have concerns about Protestantism, such as the troubles described in this quote by @MarysLurker :

But “can’t we all just believe in Jesus Christ and be done with it?” Or, as it’s often said, “no creed by Christ.” But the very next question is… which Christ? The Nestorian Christ? The Arian Christ? The Ebionist Christ? The Adoptionist One, or the Docetist One, or the Gnostic Two, or the ? Or the Monophysitist, or Apollinarianist, or…

I also understand that people can have Christ-centered dreams of Mary (as @anon91549587 described), which does give me pause in judging my friend’s dream.

In the end, I still have a lot to think and pray about. I truly desire to give everything up for God (like @Divine3 graciously described as religion’s goal) but I’m still not completely sure what that looks like for me. I will take your advice and pray, seek out rcia, and continue my studies. Above all I will pray for God’s will to be done, although I honestly hope His will is for me to become Catholic. Until that time comes, though (if it ever does), please keep me (and all those like me, like @AussieGirl) in your prayers as we seek the truth. Because if nothing else, this experience has taught me that that can be a very difficult process.

Thank you all again, & God bless

 

[mcq72]

And that’s only he beginning. If a church’s theology is simply “we’re against what Catholicism is for,” then the church potentially also rejects:

And you might say, “well we go by the Bible so we’d never reject any of that… except that last one, Tradition.” Well, if all you do is (1) go with whatever you can find in the Bible, (2) reject any kind of tradition, and (3) reject anything the Catholic Church supports, we know from the contraception movement that it’s only a matter of time until your church surrenders to the culture on matters of sexuality.

Again, totally strawman . No one does what you suggest here, as well as reformers. Furthermore the x Catholics I know are very appreciative for their Catholic foundation and for the seeds of truth planted deep in their hearts, that indeed help lead them to an encounter with Christ fulfilling all the former.

Protestants do nothing less than what Catholic Church had done in discerning truth and forming “confessions”. The only difference is emphasis on the roles of bible and tradition and magisteriums, but indeed all three are “legs” of the same stool.

But yes, there is the tempting prejudice of not appearing to be “Catholic” just as there can be a tempting prejudice for Catholics not be “Protestant”.

Finally, Protestants are not such because they protest against Catholic teaching (another lingual misunderstanding). What the reformers did protest was the taking away of the given right to feely choose and live out their faith by their convictions, by their conscience, by civil authorities in union with CC. They were then dubbed with the deragatory term “protestant” by CC and civil authorities.

The question Hope 7 raises on deciding whether to live out her convictions as Catholic or as Protestant, without civil or cultural or church penalties is a relatively new freedom.