God forced me into existence

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Okay, I will keep this short as to not disrupt this thread.

Ancient Sumer, oldest written documents, gave the Bible many of its Genesis stories. It matters greatly because if your religion didn’t come up with the concepts, then how do we know we are truly following the right religion? (Sumer was just one example)
I’ll keep this short also then ignore it. I’m not a Catholic apologist and I don’t know. Given that we are on a catholic apologetic website, I don’t think it would be difficult to find someone who does know. I’m not a biblical literalist and my faith in Jesus Christ isn’t contingent on the poetry found in genesis or the old testament. Moses could have never existed and I would still believe what I do about Jesus Christ. My guess is that the similarities between world religions (they all have a flood) suggest a divine consciousness implanted in us by a benevolent creator, but not entirely revealed until the Word, or logos, became incarnate in Christ. In short I think that egyptian religion teaches 2+2=7, islam teaches 2+2= -4, greek mythology teaches 2+2=10, protestantism teaches 2+2=5, and roman catholicism teaches 2+2=4. Some religions are close, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Google “Catholic refutation of Zeitgeist movie”
 
A) God forced me into existence

B) God forces me to choose to love him or choose to reject him

C) If I choose to love him, I get to got heaven.

D) If I choose to reject him, I get to go to hell and suffer for eternity.

All of this is possible, only because God forced me into existence and God has forced me to take part in his scheme.

There is no opt out clause.

Over 5 pages of posts and not one person has actually addressed this issue head on.
Well, it could be because the premise is absurd, appearing to originate in anger and resentment. One wonders why the godless so delight in trying to make others as resentful as they are…

If you will excuse me, I’m going to force some prayers on you.
 
You call yourself an enquirer but it is obvious from everything you write that you’re not enquiring at all. You are simply trying to refute and discredit belief in God. Why not admit that you believe you are forced into existence by the blind Goddess called Chance? If you object the solution for you is very simple… :rolleyes:
 
I’d have to both agree and disagree. I agree that many of the tenets of Judaism (which after all was the beginning of Chritianity) are (probably) taken from the Sumerian religions.

I disagree that it matters. As a Catholic I believe that almost all religions contain portions of the truth, even large portions. Only Catholicism contains the fullness of truth. So it might be true that the Jews got many ideas from the religions of Sumer. But only the Jewish writings, and the Catholic understanding of these writings, contain the fullness of truth partially known by the people of Ancient Sumer.
I would have to disagree with that because Judaism (eventually Christianity) changed the concept of “nature gods” to a concept towards the one true cause, and that cause is a judging one, so in a way these religions have brought us further from the actual God.

just my opinion though

p.s. this is a very interesting topic by the way which i would love to discuss with anyone who is willing, in another thread of course.
 
No, He is offering it to you as a gift because He is too much of a gentlemen to do otherwise. If you truly love a family member and they absolutely want anything else but to hang out with you then your best course of actions would be to not make them be with you. This is what happens with God–when you flat out reject him or prefer something to Him, He will give you exactly what you want. Hell is eternal separation from God and the gates of Hell are locked from the inside, you enter of your own free will.
 
…if your God is real, I want him to leave me alone.
And I want to be able to fly…

We don’t get to choose our existence; we are faced with a choice, either live our lives and be grateful or wallow in self pity until we die.
A) God forced me into existence
B) God forces me to choose to love him or choose to reject him
C) If I choose to love him, I get to got heaven.
D) If I choose to reject him, I get to go to hell and suffer for eternity.
The reason no one has adressed this is because it is patently flawed. No sensible human would choose to be seperate from God - the opt out clause idea is inconceivably ridiculous. Any person who would prefer non-existence over heaven is ignorant; and God would not punish such an ignorant person by granting his request. People are free to choose between unity with God (Heaven), or existence away from God (Hell).

If one is going to go contrary to logic, and state that a soul may be destroyed; one may as well say that the soul existed before it’s incarnation and other such nonsense. We know that a soul exists and that it is immortal (De Spiritualitate Et Immortalitate Animae Humanae).

Your “argument” for want of a better word is groundless in it’s premises,and absurd in it’s conclusions. A man cannot prefer non-existence to Heaven; and this is not a constraint over his “free will”, as free will is only insofar as it is prior to it’s posteriors; in that it cannot manifest the impossible (viz. Logical contradictions).

👍
 
Okay, I will keep this short as to not disrupt this thread.

Ancient Sumer, oldest written documents, gave the Bible many of its Genesis stories. It matters greatly because if your religion didn’t come up with the concepts, then how do we know we are truly following the right religion? (Sumer was just one example)
The Sumerian accounts are corruptions of the Hebrew.
 
…if your God is real, I want him to leave me alone.
This could be presumptuous on my part, so please correct me if I’m wrong as I don’t want to put words in your mouth or unfairly represent your beliefs. You don’t really mean that you want God to simply leave you alone, as that would entail an eternity of isolation. I highly doubt you want to spend all of eternity on a proverbial desert island.

You appear to want God to craft a special plan for you tailored to your personal desires. What you appear to be saying all through this thread is “I want existence on my own terms, God. Not yours. How dare you not ask, before creating me, if I wanted to participate in your plan. I must be allowed to create my own reality as I wish it to be. I, the creation, must be allowed to decide who spends eternity with ME. You the Creator should not be the one deciding who spends eternity with you. Basically, I must be allowed to be God instead of you. So step aside and hand me the reigns of power.”

I can imagine similar words spoken by Satan before the dawn of time.

In line with what po18guy said earlier, please excuse me now for also forcing some prayers upon you 🙂
 
God doesn’t offer us a system, he offers us the gift of eternal happiness. And there is an opt-out clause: hell! (Hell may well be something like ‘being left alone’ - that’s effectively where the rejection of love leaves you.)

You can’t reject the system except by offering an alternate system - but that would still be a system and we would still be left with your original problem. Why this system? What if I don’t like it?

So why didn’t God choose your system? I’m sure it’s because His is better! (That’s kind of what we have to assume, given the premises I’m sure we’re all familiar with!)
ZatZat,

I’m pretty sure that on the logical level you’ve been clearly refuted (see above for example). You’re still struggling on the psychological level. Maybe this will help:

Think of a well-governed state. It must have rules which bind those who live under its rule. The rules are necessary why? - because there are some who choose to not behave well towards their fellow citizens, including those who choose to hate the basic principle of justice which grounds and motivates the whole social order. Does that state have an obligation to make exceptions to the rules for those who want to actively work to subvert justice? And does it make sense for those who hate justice to lodge the complaint that justice isn’t fair (i.e., just)?
 
ZatZat,

I’m pretty sure that on the logical level you’ve been clearly refuted (see above for example). You’re still struggling on the psychological level. Maybe this will help:

Think of a well-governed state. It must have rules which bind those who live under its rule. The rules are necessary why? - because there are some who choose to not behave well towards their fellow citizens, including those who choose to hate the basic principle of justice which grounds and motivates the whole social order. Does that state have an obligation to make exceptions to the rules for those who want to actively work to subvert justice? And does it make sense for those who hate justice to lodge the complaint that justice isn’t fair (i.e., just)?
I have the option and the freedom to leave that state. The rules are not forced on me, I’m free to opt out by leaving.
 
OP, i want to add something since I see a few people posting eternal happiness, yada yada

It classic Christian doctrine that the world is to be despised, and life is going to be “redeemed” in the here after, it is heaven for where our rewards come.

Eternity is** not** some later time, Eternity is not a long time. Eternity has **NOTHING **to do with time, it is the dimension of here and now, which thinking in time cuts out.

This is it, this is eternity. If you do not get here then you wont get it anywhere. The experience of eternity right here and now is the function of life.

We must first agree that there even is a God to bring us into existence, which no one can prove. We could even argue that the universe has always been, and it never knew of its existence until one species (at least) evolved to have an advanced mind to think of past, present and future.

It is much better to exist and experience this eternity than to never have the sense of feeling the “I”
 
I’m glad I’m not alone in seeing that the responses have been very predictable and very unsatisfying. Why there’s been at least one response that basically said ’ cause that’s how it is and you don’t get to make the rules.’

Of course, the customary ’ you’re an angry Atheist’ and ’ I actually believe in God but am resentful’ have also reared their heads.

Without one decent answer that doesn’t defy common sense and rationality. I’m convinced that the dilemma I’ve presented is insurmountable.
 
I’m glad I’m not alone in seeing that the responses have been very predictable and very unsatisfying. Why there’s been at least one response that basically said ’ cause that’s how it is and you don’t get to make the rules.’

Of course, the customary ’ you’re an angry Atheist’ and ’ I actually believe in God but am resentful’ have also reared their heads.

Without one decent answer that doesn’t defy common sense and rationality. I’m convinced that the dilemma I’ve presented is insurmountable.
I offered a decent response, but apparently you passed it up.

Go look at my last post. I believe it’s on page 8.
 
“If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.”

As other posters have pointed out, you were not forced into existence. Rather, God allowed you to exist by allowing your concpetion to occur. If God didn’t want you to exist He would have personally stopped your conception from happening or He would have made your mother have a natural abortion. Also, if God did force you to exist, like you claim, He would have created you ex nihilo. He would have literally pulled you out of thin air and made you exist. You are correct in saying that you had no say in the matter. But like I just pointed out, this premise is wrong all around.

“I’ve been forced into existence, so that I may freely choose to reject him”

Again, you were allowed to exist. There is a difference. You also forget to add ‘…or freely choose to accept Him’. Otherwise this is correct.

“My forced existence will have me languishing eternally in hell.”

Again, you don’t include ‘…or have me rejoice eternally in Heaven’.

“If God had not forced me into existence, I wouldn’t be able to reject him and I wouldn’t have to spend eternity suffering in hell.”

For the third time, you don’t include ‘I wouldn’t be able to accept Him and spend eterntiy in His presence’.

“God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?”

To answer your question- no. This premise would be true if the only thing in the afterlife was hell- what would be the point of existing if you’ll only suffer later? But in reality there are 2 options: heaven and hell. If one doesn’t exist in the first place, he misses the opprotunity to be with God forever (bear in mind that if he doesn’t exist, he doesn’t exist- not even with God. He’s nowhere to be found). He also misses the ‘opprotunity’ to go to hell. The conclusion, though, is that existence is preferable, even if you go to hell, because you at least had a shot at being with God and expierincing (sp.) eternal happiness.

Like other users have said, God doesn’t send you to hell, you do with your own free will. You also send yourself to heaven with that will. It’s all how you use it.
God allowed me to come into existence and now forces me to accept him or reject him. I have no choice and God refuses to grant me permission to opt out of his scheme.

I have no choice in the matter, God is forcing my hand.
 
Well, it’s like so many of your posts, Zatzat.

You present a dilemma. You then state that we must respond within only a certain set of parameters. You refuse to accept anything ‘outside’ your personally chosen arbitrary and unproven parameters, then fuss that ‘nobody is answering me’, then triumphantly crow that of COURSE we ‘theists’ are nudnicks who can only ‘call you names’ or are ‘blinded by dogma’ instead of your transcendent ‘reason’. You then declare, "I’m right, you’re wrong’ and take off to start another thread based on the great Zatzat and how much better he is than God or any stupid Christians. . .

Pardon me for stifling a yawn. Your arguments may be tiresome but you are still a worthwhile, though misguided, person.

You have been answered; you choose to reject the answers. One is forced to wonder if you have even considered any answers at all or whether you, having already made up your mind, just want to let us exhaust ourselves trying to help you so that you have a further ‘snigger’ at the gullibility of us poor dense idjits of Catholics. But on the off chance that deep within that armor of self-righteous resentment lurks the tiniest ‘glimmer’ of a soul that can possibly, even if only for the briefest time, actually ‘hear’ and consider us. . . we’ll keep on trying to reach you.
 
It only seems sick to you because you’re thinking in terms of how much work you think you have to do to be “good enough” for Heaven. This is the classic (Semi-)Pelagian position which the Church condemns as heretical. We are saved by grace through faith (although faith working in love, not faith alone), not by any works which we do. Our responsibility is to love and obey God.
This is a distinction without a difference. We certainly do have to be good enough for heaven! If anyone is to reject God and go to hell, there must be something different about the way they acted in comparison to those who accepted God choosing heaven. This is all I’m saying. What this difference consists of could be anything at all, but it likely involves what is willed in the deepest part of ones heart, ones true deepest desires and intentions, along with all of ones actions while they were alive. and yes this includes interior actions of the will involving faith and love, so I don’t see your point here.
Sin is wrong not because it’s against some arbitrary rule of some game you think God is playing, but because we’re doing the things which God, in His infinite Wisdom and Love for us, warned us not to do. For virtually any of them, an objective observer, with sufficient evidence, can point to the item in question and understand in what manner the individual is harmed by committing the sin. People treat sex like it’s a harmless game, for example, but if you look at the number of deaths from AIDS, abortions, etc., you see it’s perhaps the most dangerous force on Earth – and that’s not even counting the innumerable lives ruined and hearts broken in other ways.
Again, I don’t disagree. Ideally we should all never sin. I simply doubt my ability to respond to God’s grace sufficiently to avoid hell. This is partly because I am very selfish and enjoy sinning, (through recognizing that I need to seek the truth, and stop sinning all the more if the truth convicts me ), but more importantly because I do not know just how difficult it is to get to heaven, just how good we need to be, i.e. (the odds and the risk is unknowable).

With the odds unknowable, and the risk potentially very high, it is very sensible to wish that we had not been created in the first place.

Like I said before, God could have created only people whom he knew would freely choose him, or he could have created only people whom he knew would freely reject him. He likely created a mixed bag of both kinds. The question becomes, now, what ratio was on God’s mind when he created each and every man? He could have made sure he only created those who would choose him, or he could have made sure he was creating only those who would reject him. In his omniscience, he KNEW what the radio would be, thus establishing the odds and the risk of hell.

Notice, that this risk does not conflict with the fact that we all freely choose, and could all choose heaven if we wanted to. The point is, God in his omniscience KNOWS which ones, if any, will choose hell, and you DON’T KNOW, if you are one of those who will choose hell. This is the risk you are taking, or God took on your behalf when he created you.

And I don’t appreciate it!!

I wish much that God had left me out of his mind when he created the human race. You could even say he FORCED me to exist, by loving me so much the way he did! Its just too much! 😦
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timotheos:
If God appeared and told you one day, “Zatzat, I will give you a choice. I will give you your nonexistence right now if you want; don’t worry about hell. The offer is only good for the next five minutes.” Would you take it?
Certainly! In non-existence, it would be like being asleep. You would be annihilated, and would have no thoughts or concerns ever again. You wouldn’t be able to worry your lack of heaven either, because you aren’t around to worry about it.

And you get to reduce your risk of hell to zero. As I type this I feel a joy thinking this is possible! but alas its not.
 
Zatzat -

Still do not want to touch this one?

Still unanswered.

How would you know that at the instant of your souls beginning you chose to say no?
 
God loved you into existence through your parents choice to cooperate with this process of creation… If you’re going to blame anyone, blame your parents! 😉

God made heaven so wonderful, so beautiful, so holy and good that it is worth risking the possibility of hell for. 👍
 
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