God Has a Body (Flesh & Blood) Is That a Mormon Teaching?

[BJ_Colbert]

PaulDupre:

BJ,
This is one of those big Mormon lies that you people keep telling over and over.

The truth is that all Christians - Catholics and Protestants alike - have always believed as the bible teaches that Jesus, though God, “for us and for our salvation” was born as a man. He died on the cross and was **resurrected bodily ** on the 3rd day. He ascended into heaven, with his resurrected body, and is there to this day.

Jesus’ resurrected body is as physical and tangible as yours, but His is glorified and perfected.

There is only ONE GOD, but GOD EXISTS (as He always has) AS 3 DISTINCT PERSONS (not 3 separate gods).

1. God the Father is a spirit, as the bible says (John 4:24)
2. Jesus is God the Son, the only begotten of the Father in the spirit. Jesus still has, as the bible teaches, His resurrected physical body. (Luke 24:36-51)
3. The Holy Spirit is, well, a spirit.

You have no idea how frustrating it is to hear Mormons constantly distort (and make fun of) the teachings of the bible. Your quote:

is directly from the pre-1990 version of the endowment, in which a campy protestant minister lampoons Christian doctrines. It was so insulting to new converts and caused such a mass exodus from the LDS Church that it was cut from the endowment (along with the blood oaths).

If you ever wonder why Christians have such a viscerally negative reaction to Mormonism, you need look no further than this.
Paul

Hey Paul,
It was not my quote, it is what I understood from previous posts about the Catholic belief. As you recall earlier I pointed out that my husband had brought home a Crucifix from Mass that showed 3 distinct beings and the written explanation that came with it and you all put me down and one person even said I was lying about the crucifix, but another defended me and said that it did exist, but did not mean literally that they were separate, but that it was only an artists rendition, to clarify to simple minds the three in one belief. As for your points 1, 2 and 3 above it is almost exactly as we believe, with only a few differences and there is what makes all the difference. It is only in the understanding of God and the 3 in 1 that we differ.
I would never make fun of the Bible, it is holy scripture and I believe it with all my heart. It is the word of God. You are a very angry person, and it shows in your writing and putting down of the Mormon belief. You must have been hurt very deeply by someone in the church, and you are blaming the Church for your hurt. I am sorry for your pain.

 

[PaulDupre]

BJ Colbert:

I checked this out and it is nothing but a Hate Mormon site, very disputable…

First of all, pointing out the errors in Mormonism is not “hating Mormons”.

as it only has one view of DNA testing and has thrown out reference to European DNA as being a polution of modern times.

Actually the video addresses that concern very thoroughly. Among modern Indian populations, there is 0.04% of mitachondrial DNA from European and African origin, but there is absolutely no Semitic DNA.

In fact the Book of Mormon does not reference the origin of any except Lehi who was of Hebraic origins, but not of the tribe of Judah, he was from Mannasah.

The Native American DNA studies cited in the video do not look for JEWISH DNA but rather for SEMITIC DNA. Lehi was an Israelite(a Semite) of the tribe of Mannasah.

As far as early LDS and ( present day LDS )thinking that American Indians were only descended from the Lamanites, it is perfectly understandable that they being uneducated on this subject, and just arrived from Europe and were speaking from their knowledge at the time. They were not speaking from God or study, they were just excited about the American Indians and presumed them to be directly descended from Book of Mormon people.

The BofM states clearly (on the title page written by Joseph Smith) that “The Lamanites are the principle ancestors of the American Indians”. LDS leaders, including Gordon B. Hinckley, are still teaching that.

The BofM also states clearly that there was no one on the American continents when the Lehites arrived in 600 BC (except the one old man who survived from the Jaredites). Therefore, the only genetic material available for Nephites and Lamanites was Lehi’s family.

The Book of Mormon does not say that Lehi or any of his party were Jewish and therefore can not be disproved by DNA studies.

See above.

I was brought up to believe this, but with travel and growing knowledge of the world in later years I knew about other migrations. I had come to the conclusion years before DNA studies that there would have been much intermarriage and with wars a possibility that there would be no bloodline left from that era.

Intermarriage with whom? The BofM states that the American continents were EMPTY when the Lehites arrived in 600 BC. There was no one here to intermarry with.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that DNA studies were performed only on living modern Indians. That is not the case. They also performed studies on “ancient DNA” from Indian bodies unearthed in archeological expeditions. These bodies date from Book of Mormon times, but also show absolutely no DNA from anywhere except Mongolia and Siberia.

Face the facts, BJ. Modern LDS apologists can try to rewrite the claims of the BofM and of the LDS Church, but the history is out there for all to see. Why don’t you check out the video and judge for yourself?
Grace to you,
Paul

 

[BJ_Colbert]

tkdnick:

Now I am confused and having the simple mind. I have always been told by LDS members that the story of the Old Testament is the story of Jesus interacting with His people. Now you are telling me something different. You are telling me that the OT is God (the father) interacting with His people. Which is it?

Hmm now we know how things get massively confused and as I said I am only a simple person and I know that Jesus is the Savior talked about in the Old Testament, but I don’t actually know if He was interacting alone or in harmony with God the Father and The Holy Spirit. I always believed Jesus interacted with his people when he was born on earth and thereafter, but always with and in harmony with our Father in Heaven. It is impossible to separate the Godhead as they always and even now work together. Many Mormons put their own understanding of things on paper, as McConkie did, but it is not recognized as scripture and is certainly only individual understanding, not Church doctrine. As I said this is only how I understand. Other Mormons with more knowledge may understand this in a different way, or explain it differently.
We have seen how many different explanations the Catholics in this forum come up with. Not all wrong but different explanations of the same thing with confusing results to my mind. Obviously, I can not explain things as clearly as one who has studied these things. I only know my understanding of things.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

PaulDupre:

First of all, pointing out the errors in Mormonism is not “hating Mormons”.

Actually the video addresses that concern very thoroughly. Among modern Indian populations, there is 0.04% of mitachondrial DNA from European and African origin, but there is absolutely no Semitic DNA.

The Native American DNA studies cited in the video do not look for JEWISH DNA but rather for SEMITIC DNA. Lehi was an Israelite(a Semite) of the tribe of Mannasah.

The BofM states clearly (on the title page written by Joseph Smith) that “The Lamanites are the principle ancestors of the American Indians”. LDS leaders, including Gordon B. Hinckley, are still teaching that.

The BofM also states clearly that there was no one on the American continents when the Lehites arrived in 600 BC (except the one old man who survived from the Jaredites). Therefore, the only genetic material available for Nephites and Lamanites was Lehi’s family.

See above.

Intermarriage with whom? The BofM states that the American continents were EMPTY when the Lehites arrived in 600 BC. There was no one here to intermarry with.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that DNA studies were performed only on living modern Indians. That is not the case. They also performed studies on “ancient DNA” from Indian bodies unearthed in archeological expeditions. These bodies date from Book of Mormon times, but also show absolutely no DNA from anywhere except Mongolia and Siberia.

Face the facts, BJ. Modern LDS apologists can try to rewrite the claims of the BofM and of the LDS Church, but the history is out there for all to see. Why don’t you check out the video and judge for yourself?
Grace to you,
Paul/QUOTE

As I said above, early settlers thought that the American Indians were the Lamanite people, as they and Joseph Smith had no knowlege of others.
The Book of Mormon was a history of one tribe that came by boat and settled in a small portion of America, we believe, but do not know for sure that it was around Guatemala. The persons arriving then did not know of other people, so they wrote that there were none others. Later in the Book of Mormon it tells about many other people who were discovered living on the continent and were intermarried and warred with over a thousand years. When they were still on the Euopean continent they wrote that they came to a land where there was no one else. If you travelled to a foreign land and landed on a piece of land and didn’t see anyone else, you might conclude that you were the first and only person to inhabit that land. But, later you would find you were wrong, would you be allowed to claim that your understanding was wrong or would people hold you to your original claim that you were the first and only inhabitant.
No one is denying anything, but as with the understanding of the Creation, things change with more knowledge. God’s word is the only thing that remains infallible. Man’s word is given with man’s limited understanding. You may not believe in the Creation, but I do and Evolution did not even cause a blip on my radar, but it destroyed persons with less faith, and I am sure some Christians faltered in their belief because of it. Did you?

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

Hmm now we know how things get massively confused and as I said I am only a simple person and I know that Jesus is the Savior talked about in the Old Testament, but I don’t actually know if He was interacting alone or in harmony with God the Father and The Holy Spirit. I always believed Jesus interacted with his people when he was born on earth and thereafter, but always with and in harmony with our Father in Heaven. It is impossible to separate the Godhead as they always and even now work together…
We have seen how many different explanations the Catholics in this forum come up with. Not all wrong but different explanations of the same thing with confusing results to my mind. Obviously, I can not explain things as clearly as one who has studied these things. I only know my understanding of things.

I do understand what you are saying. Everyone has a different way of explaining things. Some work better than others. You are correct, Jesus, God the father, and the Holy Spirit work in perfect harmony! My confusion is that every LDS person I have talked to has told me that any time you find the word “God” or “LORD” in the OT, it is referring not to God the father, but to Jesus. You are the only LDS member I have heard say anything different. Something for you to research I guess.

 

[PaulDupre]

As I said above, early settlers thought that the American Indians were the Lamanite people, as they and Joseph Smith had no knowlege of others.

It was not a matter of opinion. Joseph Smith claimed that this was divine revelation. The LDS Church STILL teaches that the Indians are the Lamanites.

The Book of Mormon was a history of one tribe that came by boat and settled in a small portion of America, we believe, but do not know for sure that it was around Guatemala. The persons arriving then did not know of other people, so they wrote that there were none others. Later in the Book of Mormon it tells about many other people who were discovered living on the continent and were intermarried and warred with over a thousand years.

BJ, with all due respect, have you ever really read the BOM? It never tells of discovering other people and warring with them. The only people they met were the Mulekites, who were also from Semites from Israel. The wars were between the Nephites and the Lamanites, both of whom were descended from the sons of Lehi (Nephi and Laman respectively).

When they were still on the Euopean continent they wrote that they came to a land where there was no one else. If you travelled to a foreign land and landed on a piece of land and didn’t see anyone else, you might conclude that you were the first and only person to inhabit that land. But, later you would find you were wrong, would you be allowed to claim that your understanding was wrong or would people hold you to your original claim that you were the first and only inhabitant.

Okay, you’ve lost me here. No one in the BOM was ever on the European continent. The Lehites came from Israel, which is in Asia.
Again, it was not a matter of opinion that they were alone. In 2 Nephi 1:6-9, God reveals to Lehi that there was no one else in the Americas and that it was exclusively Lehi’s land to possess. Was God mistaken?

No one is denying anything, but as with the understanding of the Creation, things change with more knowledge. God’s word is the only thing that remains infallible. Man’s word is given with man’s limited understanding.

If the BOM is God’s word, and 2 Nephi 1:6-9 says that there was no one else on the American continents when Lehi arrived, then how can you reinterpret it to say that there were lots of other peoples there to intermarry with?

You may not believe in the Creation, but I do and Evolution did not even cause a blip on my radar, but it destroyed persons with less faith, and I am sure some Christians faltered in their belief because of it. Did you?

I am a Catholic, so of course I believe in the Creation. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the contradiction between science and the BOM.
The accounts of the creation as told in GEnesis can be reconciled with modern science in any number of ways, because Genesis is poetic and not very specific about the detailed methods of creation. It just states that God did it, it doesn’t specify how.
The BOM on the other hand is very specific in claiming:

1. A family from Jerusalem sailed to the New World in 600 BC. they were descended from Joseph through Mannasah (Alma 10:3)
2. There was no one else in the Americas when they got there (2 Nephi 1:6-9)
3. The Lamanites are the principle ancestors of the American Indians (BOM Title Page).
4. They spoke Hebrew and kept their written records in “Reformed Egyptian”.
   This has been disproven by several branches of science, including archeology, linguistics, human biology, and now DNA.
   Paul

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Oops I meant to say African continent, is that what you meant when you said Israel is in Asia? We both goofed, but also people in biblical times travelled to Europe, as I believe Rome is in Italy which is in Europe, so it is very possible some of the immigration to the new world was by people of European blood. In fact we do not know what bloodline Lehi’s wife was descended from. So all of this is just speculation, and you can assume anything you want to.
You seem to know more than God himself about other religions and their ancestors. It must make you feel very special to be able to make very strong statements with the limited knowledge you have.
Read the book “Mapping Human History”(2002a, p.114) You will find that Steve Olson has a hugely different viewpoint than your DNA specialists. He says" The forces of genetic mixing are so powerful that everyone in the world has Jewish ancestors, though the amount of DNA from those ancestors in a given individual may be small. In fact everyone on earth is by now a decendent of Abraham, Moses and Aaron—if indeed they existed".
So you see you may find proof (to You) of anything you wish to find proof about. Just read a bit more on DNA and read other scientific research besides the one you are suggesting persons reading this forum should read. There are many other DNA studies and scientists have found different theories according to the line they are studying. I have in the past couple of days read several and so depending on which way I want to believe I could lean toward one or the other. I choose to believe in God, and my belief is not based on any DNA research.
“Critics may rage about God’s purported failure to reveal complete scientific information to modern prophets. How could God let a true prophet understand something incompletely? Jeff Lindsey, whom I am Quoting, says” I believe that God’s revelation are intended to teach people what is needed for salvation. If a prophet were to mistakenly think that a bat was a bird, a mistake Moses may have made(based on Deut.14:7.18), then can we accuse that prophet of having led the people to damnation? Not really. It’s a detail of minor importance for the purposes behind the Gook of Deuteronomy. When later scientific information reveals that bats are mammals, not birds, we can take several approaches in responding such as:

1. Reject Moses and the Bible, and write anti-Biblical essays to lead as many people as possible away from the Bible.
   2.Rejoice that God has now revealed more complete information through the medium of science, that can help us better understand details of our world and of the Biblical record.
   3.Demand that secular science no longer be taught in schools, since we know from the Bible that bats are birds. End of story.

I choose number 2 and recognize that prohets are mortal. Though they are inspired by God on many matters pertaining to our salvation. God does not replace 100% of their brain with new matter upon being called as prohet. I believe that they maintain their knowledge and understanding of things until God sees fit to provide new knowledge. Everything from their use of grammer to their preference of football teams to their understanding of ancient American history and the genetic makeup of indigenous peoples will be subject to their past education and experience. Biases, misconceptions, and limitations in understanding need not suddenly morph into perfect omniscience one they are called as prophets"…Or popes(my words)
There is a lot more and I have left out tons, because I am tired of writing.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Oops again… I meant Book not Gook…so sorry.

And I only threw the part about the Creation into the fray because some scientists believe that they have scientific evidence that the Bible is based on myth. This is because of their study of evolution. I am merely pointing out that in the early years of THIS discovery by scientists many Christians could not explain how this could be. Now we know there is a perfectly logical explanation being that God’s days are not numbered by hours as man’s days are numbered. Gee we also thought the world was flat at one time and discovered it wasn’t, quite by accident. I’m sure the learned of those days thought they had proof that the world was flat. Could be there is more to learn, or is this all there will ever be on DNA…final word end of story. All we can do is wait and see and study all new findings and balance out all theories advanced by all scientists, based on their research.
Just wait and see someone might discover monkey DNA in humans, or maybe they already have. Then what will you say in defense of Christianity?

 

[PaulDupre]

BJ Colbert:

Oops I meant to say African continent, is that what you meant when you said Israel is in Asia?

No, I meant Asia. You do understand, don’t you, that Israel is in Asia (specifically the Middle East), not Africa?

We both goofed,

Well, one of us did.

but also people in biblical times travelled to Europe, as I believe Rome is in Italy which is in Europe, so it is very possible some of the immigration to the new world was by people of European blood.

??? Okay, I give up.

Peace to you, Mrs. Colbert.
Paul

 

[BJ_Colbert]

You are right, Israel is right on the edge of Jordan and Lebanon, but also joins Egypt on the southeast, which means it could be on both continents, but Asia is quite a ways over from Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, so I don’t believe the middle east is Asia. Could be you are right, I have been there, but never really felt Israel or the middle east was part of Asia. I don’t have a world map at my fingertips now and can only say from memory, which is fading fast. I know Egypt is for sure on the African continent. They kind of all run together, one leading to another. I think then that would prove that Israelites are Asian, which would just tie up very well with the DNA of the American Indians claiming they are Asian. Perfect I give up too.
You are right about the whole thing as you see it and I am right as I see it. Thank you for a very vigorous work out.

 

[Shiann]

BJ Colbert:

You are right, Israel is right on the edge of Jordan and Lebanon, but also joins Egypt on the southeast, which means it could be on both continents, but Asia is quite a ways over from Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, so I don’t believe the middle east is Asia. Could be you are right, I have been there, but never really felt Israel or the middle east was part of Asia. I don’t have a world map at my fingertips now and can only say from memory, which is fading fast. I know Egypt is for sure on the African continent. They kind of all run together, one leading to another. I think then that would prove that Israelites are Asian, which would just tie up very well with the DNA of the American Indians claiming they are Asian. Perfect I give up too.
You are right about the whole thing as you see it and I am right as I see it. Thank you for a very vigorous work out.

Isreal is in Asia:

ri.net/schools/Central_Falls/v/218/asia.html

 

[Tmaque]

Mormons have believed that Lamanites and Native Americans were one in the same from 1830 right up until the DNA evidence came out. This includes numerous “prophets of God”. Let me get this straight, these “prophets” recieved numerous revelations concerning all sorts of things but God failed to reveal that a fundamental belief was wrong? Even more important…Joseph Smith himself believed that the Indians were descendants of the Lamanites…ALL the indians. You’re saying even HE was wrong? Hmmm…if he was wrong about that…well, then what can we believe? I was raised LDS, there was never ANY doubt that they were the same. I understand the desperate attempt to a salvage a disproved belief system, but don’t you at some point, just say to yourself enough is enough? A duck is a duck. The evidence is simply too overwhelming to ignore.

 

[Exporter]

BJ ColbertOops again… I meant Book not Gook…so sorry.

And I only threw the part about the Creation into the fray because** some scientists believe that they have scientific evidence that the Bible is based on myth**. This is because of their study of evolution.

“Some scientists believe that the Bible is based on myth. Look waht was written.”

SOME - in fact a miniscule number of scientists.
SCIENTISTS - people who call themselves “scientists”[fakes]
BELIEVE - No proof, no evidence…just a “belief”

Then to say that the Theory of Evolution must be the MYTH that gave rise to the Bible is just plain wrong. God gave us the Bible. Evolution was not even heard of in the first 6 centuries after Christ was here. So Evolution could NOT ne the myth upon which the Bible was based,
The Bible was written BEFORE anyone heard of Evolution!!

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Shiann:

Isreal is in Asia:

Hey thanks, I found out last night when I asked my husband, he lived in Iran for a while and knows the middle east pretty well. Sorry for the argument Paul DuPre…Just had to get the last word in even if it was wrong.

Of course it is no different than anything I have said to all of you, as for everything I have said it may as well be in Africa. Same difference.
On the part about Joseph Smith believing the American Indians were the Lamanites, the jury is still out, but as I explained in a former post. Just because a man is called to be a prophet or a pope and is inspired and given revelation to lead God’s people, does not mean he suddenly has his brain replaced, and has no memory of past teachings or has no capacity to think on his own.
He is still a man and as a man can make mistakes. I pointed out example Moses who thought Bats were Birds and we have since with further scientific knowledge found that they are mammals. That is no reason to disbelieve the Bible. Also, DNA is from the mother and many scientists disagree on the findings about the Indians, so it is still not a proven fact, but a theory in progress. Still much to be learned about DNA. I found out that if my DNA was tested they would not be able to determine all of the nationalities in my bloodline, because the father’s side is the Y-chromosome and it is difficult to trace. That is why they trace the mother. We do not know what nationality Lehi’s wife was.
Besides after 2000 years of intermarriage with other tribes which came from Australia, Asia, and there is evidence many other lands, from as far as 20,000 or more years ago. There were settlers in Peru and other parts of South America already established when the Lehi and his family arrived at what we believe to be present day Guatemala. It is only what we believe and there is much more to be discovered, as I said only a small portion of Tikal has been uncovered, and Archeologists have been working for many years.

If the Book of Mormon is false it certainly is a good story, made up by a very imaginative 14 year old boy.

I have a question…why would a church(I know it was some other church not Catholic) go to such expense to hire DNA specialists to prove the Book of Mormon wrong?
That is a very expensive process, and seems a strange thing to do. Why don’t they help the poor or do something really worthwhile if they have so much extra money lying around. And why are the Catholics so interested in that?

Even if the American Indians have no Jewish blood it doesn’t matter, as I said some DNA scientists have said every person on earth today has some Jewish blood, from Abraham, Moses or Aaron. My faith is in God, not in man.

 

[tkdnick]

Not to argue or anything…but how do you know it was a church that fronted the money for all this DNA research? I mean, obviously if it’s true, it’s true, i’m just curious. From what I understand (and I have no references for this) scientists for MANY years have held that Native Americans came from the area of the Asian continent around China. Is it possible that researchers were simply quick to research this idea of Native Americans being of Semitic decent? Again, I have no references, just curious.

 

[PaulDupre]

BJ Colbert:

I have a question…why would a church(I know it was some other church not Catholic) go to such expense to hire DNA specialists to prove the Book of Mormon wrong?
That is a very expensive process, and seems a strange thing to do. Why don’t they help the poor or do something really worthwhile if they have so much extra money lying around. And why are the Catholics so interested in that?

BJ,
It wasn’t a church that did the DNA experiments on Indian tribes. Many universities, including BYU, have been doing these genetic studies for several years. It had nothing to do with disproving the Book of Mormon. No scientist cares about the Book of Mormon, not even a little bit. Scientists have always been interested in the origins of aboriginal people.

All of their findings prove that the Indians are descended 99.6% from Mongolian/Siberian tribes. Look up Mongolia and Siberia on your map. You will see that it is a long way from Israel.

It was scientists at BYU that first noticed that the DNA evidence (along with the archeological, biological and linguistic evidence) disproved the Book of Mormon. The video that we were discussing is all Mormon DNA scientists. They all now realize that the BOM is false. Most of them have left the LDS Church. That’s why you should see it.

Even if the American Indians have no Jewish blood it doesn’t matter, as I said some DNA scientists have said every person on earth today has some Jewish blood, from Abraham, Moses or Aaron. My faith is in God, not in man.

The American Indians have no Israelite DNA at all. Isn’t that strange if they are descended from Lehi?
Paul

 

[tkdnick]

That video about DNA vs the Book of Mormon is all LDS scientists? I didn’t know that! I have heard that BH Roberts (a very respected LDS historian) actually wrote a book toward the end of his life that explained his findings on this.

 

[Katholikos]

Shiann wrote:

Isreal is in Asia:

The specific areas of Mongolia and Siberia are the ancestral homes of the American Indians – nowhere near Israel. They are not at all semetic. Moreover, Indians have mongoloid dentition. There are no semetic influences in their languages.

The Book of Mormon has many problems, not the least of which is that it was supposedly written in “Reformed Egyptian,” but it translated into imitation Elizabethan English, mimicking the KJV. It’s hard to imagine that "Reformed Egyptian (a language unknown to Egyptologists) translates as “Yea, verily.” A great deal of the BOM was lifted right out of the KJV.

There are other problems – such as a French word supposedly written in America 600 B.C., but the French language didn’t even begin developing until the 9th century A.D. in Europe. And it takes a foundry to make steel. Archaeology has found no evidence to support such claims. The list goes on.

The DNA evidence just caps it.
JMJ Jay

 

[PaulDupre]

tkdnick:

That video about DNA vs the Book of Mormon is all LDS scientists? I didn’t know that! I have heard that BH Roberts (a very respected LDS historian) actually wrote a book toward the end of his life that explained his findings on this.

Yes, toward the end of his life, LDS historian B.H. Roberts came to understand that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. Here is a link to his writings on the subject:

cephas-library.com/mormon/mormon_b.h.roberts_disappointments.html

Paul

 

[Katholikos]

Mrs. Colbert,

Did you notice that I provided a website yesterday where your husband can enroll in free courses in Catholicism? The books – several of them – are also provided free of charge. Just making sure you saw it. . . Peace, Jay