God Has a Body (Flesh & Blood) Is That a Mormon Teaching?

[Katholikos]

Sophie wrote:

By all technical terms, Mormons are not polytheists. They are henothiests, which is the belief in worshiping one god among many gods.

The problem with the henotheism theory is that the Mormon “Trinity” consists of three distinct gods: the Father and two “spirit-children” called the Son (i.e., Jesus) and the Holy Ghost. These three are united in one “Godhead” – a term implying unity of understanding and purpose. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the literal children of the father, engendered through sexual union. Besides the Son and the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Father has innumerable spirit-children – including all of us who live or ever have lived on the earth. Lucifer (Satan) is the brother of Jesus and our brother, since we all have the same Heavenly Father.

Since Jesus (Son) is a separate god with a body, and the Holy Ghost is separate god without a body, do Mormons not worship them? If not, why not? They say they worship only the God of the earth, and ignore all the other gods in the universe, so that makes them monotheists . But the earth has three gods, not one.

They worship one god out of three? Would any god tolerate that?

:whacky:

 

[Sophie]

Katholicos, super explanation of God’s Holy Catholic Church and His sacred word, the Bible. Yes, Mormon’s will try to say they believe in the Bible, but conveniently forget to mention that one of their “articles of faith” states that they believe in the Bible, but only as far as it is translated correctly. A mormon apostle, Orson Pratt in the 1850’s summed up their feelings about the Bible when he wrote, “Can we rely upon it in it’s present known corrupted state as being a faithful record of God’s word. Who, in his right mind could, for one moment, suppose the Bible in it’s present form be a perfect guide. Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution…” (Orson Pratt’s works, “The Bible Alone An Insufficient Guide.” pages 44-47).

History and archeology shows that the Bible has been translated correctly. Yet, Mormonism teaches it’s members to believe in only the writings of their leaders, which have contained thousands upon thousands of mistakes, (and still do contain many, many mistakes.)

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Shiann:

These researchers track DNA genealogy through mitochondrial DNA or the DNA we receive exclusively from our mother. By noting the subtle genetic mutations in certain races scientists are able to trace bloodlines as far back as they have DNA samples.

So yes, scientists and anthropologists can track races/tribes/families with near certainty.

More information from non-religious genealogy site:
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/genetics.html

I was fascinated with this and took it a step further to Adam and Eve and found this…an article from the Washington Post, by Boyce Rensberger entitled Genetics:An Evolutionary Mate for 'Eve"? It states that 10 years ago molecular biologists found evidence in human genes that all people share a common mother whom they call Eve dating from Africa 200,000 years ago. Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosome Adam are suggested to be the common ancestors of all people alive today, even though Adam dates from 188,000 years ago. ( According to molecular biologists Eve came first…those are my words… not Rensberger’s). Some people dispute this and claim Chinese forms of Homo Erectus date back 400,000 years. And modern Asian populations contradict the genetic data. Some of this information is found in Biology 121-University of Virginia Robert J. Huskey.
We could check the DNA for Noah also, because all humans should date back to Noah and his family because of the flood and having to start all over.
In your study, did the American Indians DNA match with Adam and Eve? Seems like they would and we should all trace back to African or Jewish, or any of the earliest civilizations. Does that make sense or am I just spinning. If we all believe in Adam and Eve and the creation(which I know I do) then we all originated with them and we all have common genes from them.
I’m not very educated about this, but will do some more research
and also check the study about the Indians not matching Jewish DNA. They have to match something, so where did they come from? How did they get here, if Adam and Eve were on the African continent? They must have migrated from somewhere…the National Geographic book that I quoted previously, says that South America was settled about 2000 years before Christ. Lehi and his family only came to Central America 600 years before Christ. Another group came over around that time and during the next thousand years or so they travelled and other tribes travelled and all intermarried and so there should be DNA to tell where they all originated , or can DNA only tell where they did not originate?
I know this sounds stupid to you all, but my mind is just boggled by the possibilities.

 

[tkdnick]

I have no references to offer at this time…only to say that nearly 100% of all archaelogists, social scientists, whoever it is that studies the history of this continent and it’s inhabitants agree that the Native American population came from Asia over the Behring Strait when it was a land bridge (likely toward the end of the last Ice Age). One important thing to remember about the history of man and earth is that the land masses on earth used to be one solid mass (this is taught in all basic high school science classes). South America and Africa have a VERY symmetrical/compatible shoreline! That would be how people got from one place to the other. They walked! I can’t speak really on the info that all people come from one mother in Africa though, as I am DEFINITELY NOT an expert in this type of stuff.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Katholikos,
I am thoroughly confused now about what Catholics believe about God’s form. I am sorry, but I thought you believed that He and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all one spirit and take different forms at different times, but do not have any bodies and are not plural but one. Now, one of the threads agreed with me that Jesus has his body even now,and that is what Catholics believe. I think this person must be mistaken about their own beliefs. As I asked before, is there a class where Catholics can study their own faith and ask questions? My husband really needs this class, I am trying to teach him from his own Catholic bible, but he doesn’t see the difference between my God and the Catholic God. I agree with one of the writers(maybe you) that the Catholic Bible is probably the most pure and unadulterated of the two(King James). After all the Bible was just put together by a group of men working together and deciding what to put in, and leave out and what meant what. As Joseph Smith said, ''We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly". We normally study the King James version, but are aware of the Joseph Smith corrections which were inspired by the Spirit. Sometimes those are brought out in our study classes, they are in the footnotes of my bible as additional clarification of certain passages, and they are available in bookstores for those who study more than I do.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Katholikos:

Sophie wrote:
The problem with the henotheism theory is that the Mormon “Trinity” consists of three distinct gods: the Father and two “spirit-children” called the Son (i.e., Jesus) and the Holy Ghost. These three are united in one “Godhead” – a term implying unity of understanding and purpose. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the literal children of the father, engendered through sexual union. Besides the Son and the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Father has innumerable spirit-children – including all of us who live or ever have lived on the earth. Lucifer (Satan) is the brother of Jesus and our brother, since we all have the same Heavenly Father.

Since Jesus (Son) is a separate god with a body, and the Holy Ghost is separate god without a body, do Mormons not worship them? If not, why not? They say they worship only the God of the earth, and ignore all the other gods in the universe, so that makes them monotheists . But the earth has three gods, not one.

They worship one god out of three? Would any god tolerate that?

:whacky:

Yes, we do worship all three as one Godhead. We begin all our prayers with, “Our Father in Heaven”, and end all prayers with “In the name of thy son Jesus Christ Amen”. We receive guidance and personal help from God and Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit who is the mediator from God to us. I know that is as difficult for you to understand as it is for me to understand how Jesus Christ can be his own father. It is indeed a mystery. What ever gods are in the universe are not our God, and we do not know these gods, nor worship them. There may be other people in other worlds who do worship them, but we do not know personally any god but the one we worship and he is above all other gods who might exist. This will blow your mind…we also believe that Jesus Christ is the God of Earth, and God the father is the father of the universe. So that is why it is so confusing in the bible when Jesus calls on his Father many times. I think how could, or why would he call on himself. I guess Catholics do not question that, and that’s OK, I’m just saying what I think, and not quoting any scripture or any Mormon writers.

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

What ever gods are in the universe are not our God, and we do not know these gods, nor worship them. There may be other people in other worlds who do worship them, but we do not know personally any god but the one we worship and he is above all other gods who might exist. This will blow your mind…we also believe that Jesus Christ is the God of Earth, and God the father is the father of the universe. So that is why it is so confusing in the bible when Jesus calls on his Father many times. I think how could, or why would he call on himself. I guess Catholics do not question that, and that’s OK, I’m just saying what I think, and not quoting any scripture or any Mormon writers.

BJ, this is one of the reasons Catholics have such a hard time with LDS members. Some say NO - We have 1 God of this earth, GOd the father and we worship Him alone. Then Others say - there is a godhead of three separate gods who are over this earth and who we worship. Then your statement (which is what some of my LDS friends say) is that Jesus is the god of this world while God the father is God of something more. I have also had several LDS people tell me that God the father was a man on another planet and that he had a god that he prayed to and worshipped and that it was because of his great life on that planet that his god exalted him to godhood. This again is very confusing when compared to your statement that God the father is “above all other gods who might exist”. Do you see how all this can be so confusing to us?

The reason Catholics do not question Jesus praying to the father, etc. is because of our understanding of the Trinity. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons in one being. So yes, Jesus can (and would) pray to the father as a separate person making up 1/3 of the supreme being (Trinity).

 

[Katholikos]

BJ COLBERT wrote:

In your study, did the American Indians DNA match with Adam and Eve? Seems like they would and we should all trace back to African or Jewish, or any of the earliest civilizations. Does that make sense or am I just spinning. If we all believe in Adam and Eve and the creation(which I know I do) then we all originated with them and we all have common genes from them.

There are two genetic studies on video for us non-technical types. One is “The Real Eve” which traces the human lineage back to “Genetic Eve,” through mitochondrial DNA, available from the Discovery Channel. The other is “Journey of Man,The Story of The Human Species” a DNA study of human origins and relationships, available from PBS. Both trace our migration out of Africa and into other parts of the world. We are all Africans, and we are all brothers and sisters. Skin color and other human variations result from environmental differences. We were all Black (Genetic Eve and her children lived near the Equator) but became white, yellow, red, brown, whatever, over time as we adjusted to different environments. Every human being is related to every other human being – so racism is pure ignorance. The markers are in our DNA. Our migrations, too, can be traced through DNA.

American Indians are Mongoloid (Asian), not Semetic (Jewish). They crossed over the Bering Straits Land Bridge, between what is now Russia and Alaska, into the Americas. This is proven through dental studies (physical anthropology) as well as through DNA. This is scientific proof that Mormonism is not true. I know it’s a terrible blow, to have one’s beliefs shattered, but that’s the truth.

I have ordered the video DNA vs. Book of Mormon, but I haven’t seen it (yet).

Peace to all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay

 

[BYU-BOY]

Katholikos:

The Catholic Church is some 400 years older than the New Testament. The Church wrote the NT under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and formed the Bible. The New Testament can only be correctly understood when it is read within the context of the teachings of the Church who wrote it.

Katholikos,
By stating that one can only correctly understand the New Testament when it is read within the context of the teachings of the Church is shifting the authority of truth. Both our faiths claim to be the true Church. However, this appeal to authority when it comes to understanding truth should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of the fountain of truth and knowledge - God. It is not the LDS Church that gives me the correct understanding of the scriptures but my earnest desire to seek for truth and God’s mercy to give it to me.

Katholikos:

The beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church did not come out of the New Testament, as is the case with all Protestants. Jesus Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the Church, before the NT ever existed. The doctrines of the CC came from the lips of the Apostles. The NT is the fruit of that teaching. Not everything the Apostles said got written down and canonized in a book. Some of what they taught the Church was preserved and transmitted through living Sacred Tradition. The Scriptures are themselves written oral tradition – that is true of both the OT and the NT. The Catholic Church deems both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as her Deposit of Faith.

We read in Colossians 2:8, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

It is easy for men to fall into traditions that are contrary to the laws of God. A great example of this comes from the early converts who continued with circumcision because it was tradition with the Law of Moses.

Act 15:1 states,“AND certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

I will be the first to admit that in the LDS Church there is speculation and dispute. I don’t think McConkie and Roberts could agree on the weather let alone certain doctrines and both were Apostles of the LDS Church.

Does this negate their Divine callings? If so, then Paul and Peter would be out of the picture, too. My full intention in sharing these examples is to show that traditions even “sacred traditions” are just that, traditions. Are they true? Who can say. None of us were there and it is quite easy to see how corrupt doctrine could have crept in.

Looking at the early church we can see that there was quite some persecution against the Christians. The persecution was so bad that many believers were killed. So, who survived? Those that would deny that they were Christians to save their life. In other words, those that would not sacrifice all for Christ, survived. I am not arguing that this was the case for all strong Christians. However, I use this example to show that it would be rather easy for corrupt doctrine to come through tradition.

 

[BYU-BOY]

Katholikos:
So it’s not likely that you will be able to convince a Catholic who knows his Faith that God is an “exalted man.” I don’t believe that the title of this discussion is, “Can you please convince a devout Catholic that I should believe in the Mormon ideology that God is an exalted man.” I am not trying to convince anyone that they should forsake their inner beliefs and come to believe my inner beliefs. However, I am here to offer a correct understanding of what Mormons do believe. Would one go to Judas to learn about Christ? Obviously not.

 

[Chris-WA]

BYU-BOY:
Katholikos,
By stating that one can only correctly understand the New Testament when it is read within the context of the teachings of the Church is shifting the authority of truth. Both our faiths claim to be the true Church. However, this appeal to authority when it comes to understanding truth should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of the fountain of truth and knowledge - God. It is not the LDS Church that gives me the correct understanding of the scriptures but my earnest desire to seek for truth and God’s mercy to give it to me.
Actually, no. This is incorrect. The best evidence why this isn’t correct is the multitude of Christian denominations that now exist as a result of the Protestant Reformation. All these founders believed they had an earnest desire to seek for truth, and the result is 25,000+ different Protestant denominations today. Why, because instead of reading scripture within the context of the church, they earnestly sought for truth apart from the church and ended up with 25,000+ different interpretations of scripture. What is the pillar and foundation of truth? The pillar and foundation of truth is the church (1Timothy 3:15).

BYU-BOY:

We read in Colossians 2:8, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

It is easy for men to fall into traditions that are contrary to the laws of God. A great example of this comes from the early converts who continued with circumcision because it was tradition with the Law of Moses…

First of all, Christ is not attacking tradition. He is attacking the “tradition of men,” which stands in stark contrast to the Sacred Tradition of the church. If Christ were attacking all tradition, then Paul would not have exhorted the church to “stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Secondly, you are correct that it is easy for men to fall into false traditions. But the authority to bind and loose was given to the church at the very beginning, under the protection of the Holy Spirit, and with this authority the church can distinguish between the traditions of men and the Sacred Tradition of the church.

BYU-BOY:

Does this negate their Divine callings? If so, then Paul and Peter would be out of the picture, too. My full intention in sharing these examples is to show that traditions even “sacred traditions” are just that, traditions. Are they true? Who can say. None of us were there and it is quite easy to see how corrupt doctrine could have crept in.

No way man. “Sacred traditions” are not just traditions. Again see 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

BYU-BOY:

Looking at the early church we can see that there was quite some persecution against the Christians. The persecution was so bad that many believers were killed. So, who survived? Those that would deny that they were Christians to save their life. In other words, those that would not sacrifice all for Christ, survived. I am not arguing that this was the case for all strong Christians. However, I use this example to show that it would be rather easy for corrupt doctrine to come through tradition.

You need to explore this idea more deeply. It is easy for the LDS to say that many of the true believers were killed off and took the truth with them. That requires no proof. But where is the evidence? Look at early church history and see what these people died for. They died for Catholic doctrines we have today–such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[Sophie]

We read in Colossians 2:8, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Sorry, but as Katholikos pointed out, the Holy Catholic Church, given to us by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came before the New Testament was ever written. Jesus never told his followers to write everything down. The Catholic Church was alive and well 400 years before the New Testament was compiled.

Jesus said His Church would be “the light of the world.” And that a city set on a hill cannot be hid. (Matt. 5:14) Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18). This means that His Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from Him. The Catholic Church is the only universal Church that has existed since the time of Jesus. Only the Catholic Church existed in the 10th century, the 4th century and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles. It has existed for over 2000 years. This is testimony to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told His apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19-20)

The apostles were the first bishops, and since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2) These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus, body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more, even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

 

[PaulDupre]

I have ordered the video DNA vs. Book of Mormon, but I haven’t seen it (yet).

I have that video. It is absolutely devastating to LDS claims for the Book of Mormon.

Of course, we already knew back in the 80’s that archeology, linguistics and human biology showed that Native Americans were descended from Mongolian/Siberian people, not from Israelites. The DNA evidence is just the final nail in the coffin for the BofM, and hence for Joseph Smith.

If the LDS Church keeps trying to pretend that this problem does not exist, and they keep pretending that American Indians are descendants of “Lamanites”, then the LDS Church will self-destruct.

However if the LDS leadership, like the RLDS leadership, admits that the BofM is not historical, then maybe the LDS Church will morph into something sustainable, as the RLDS Church (now morphed into “The Community of Christ”) has done.

It will be interesting to watch, but I feel sorry for all the devoted Mormons that will be hurt by this.
Paul

 

[Sophie]

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim

 

[tkdnick]

PaulDupre:

I have that video. It is absolutely devastating to LDS claims for the Book of Mormon.

Of course, we already knew back in the 80’s that archeology, linguistics and human biology showed that Native Americans were descended from Mongolian/Siberian people, not from Israelites. The DNA evidence is just the final nail in the coffin for the BofM, and hence for Joseph Smith.

If the LDS Church keeps trying to pretend that this problem does not exist, and they keep pretending that American Indians are descendants of “Lamanites”, then the LDS Church will self-destruct.

However if the LDS leadership, like the RLDS leadership, admits that the BofM is not historical, then maybe the LDS Church will morph into something sustainable, as the RLDS Church (now morphed into “The Community of Christ”) has done.

It will be interesting to watch, but I feel sorry for all the devoted Mormons that will be hurt by this.
Paul

Sounds like maybe I’ll have to check out this video! Anyone know where I can get it?

Here’s what I would REALLY LOVE to see as the future of the LDS faith: The President and the 12 find the truth of Catholic teaching and convert en masse!

 

[Sophie]

BJ Colbert:

It states that 10 years ago molecular biologists found evidence in human genes that all people share a common mother whom they call Eve dating from Africa 200,000 years ago

How can this be? Joseph Smith taught that the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve were located in the state of Missouri???

 

[Sophie]

tkdnick:

Here’s what I would REALLY LOVE to see as the future of the LDS faith: The President and the 12 find the truth of Catholic teaching and convert en masse!

This will never happen. They are making way too much to give up the income from all those tithes and their pension plans wouldn’t be funded.

 

[Katholikos]

BYU-BOY wrote:

Katholikos,
By stating that one can only correctly understand the New Testament when it is read within the context of the teachings of the Church is shifting the authority of truth. Both our faiths claim to be the true Church. However, this appeal to authority when it comes to understanding truth should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of the fountain of truth and knowledge - God. It is not the LDS Church that gives me the correct understanding of the scriptures but my earnest desire to seek for truth and God’s mercy to give it to me.

Sophie, Chris-WA, Paul - :clapping:

BYU-BOY,

First, you say the truth is in the Bible. Now you say it’s in your “earnest desire to seek for truth and God’s mercy to give it [the correct understanding] to you.” Your statement is in error prima facie since many others “earnestly desire to seek the truth” and ask God, and they do not arrive at the same conclusions you do. Either that or you’re God’s favorite, and He misleads the rest of mankind.

The Catholic Church taught the same doctrines and practices she teaches now before the NT was written, during the time it was being written, and after it was written. The NT confirms her teachings but it is not their source. The NT reflects the teaching of the Church because she herself wrote it – and what she wrote and what she taught are one and the same. She was guided by the Spirit both in her writing and in her teaching. So the NT reflects the teaching of the Church, not vice versa. (I’m repeating for emphasis; it’s important that you understand.) ***The Church would teach exactly the same doctrines and practices she teaches now, whether or not the New Testament had been written. She learned her Truths not from a book but from the very lips of the Apostles. ***

*The authority of truth is the Church. It is the Church that gives us the correct understanding of the revelation of God – not the Bible, not a “burning in our bosoms,” not our earnest desire – but the Church which Jesus Christ founded for the salvation of the world. The Church will teach His Truth until the end of time. *

The Church speaks for Christ. He said to the Church’s leaders, then and now: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16 (see Mt 10:15).

I’m sorry you have rejected the True Church and have embraced a false institution, founded not by Christ but by a mere man. We’ll discuss what kind of man Joseph Smith was another time.

Brief definition: The Church is the People of God, united in Faith under the leadership of St. Peter and his successors.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Sophie:

BJ Colbert:

It states that 10 years ago molecular biologists found evidence in human genes that all people share a common mother whom they call Eve dating from Africa 200,000 years ago

How can this be? Joseph Smith taught that the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve were located in the state of Missouri???

I don’t know how this can be, but of course there are many who don’t agree with either theory, and that is why it is theory. How can it be that Adam originated 188,000 years ago and Eve 200,000 years ago. It is all speculation and different scientists and researchers believe different things. Also they just named the woman Eve, they don’t know if it was the original Eve and there are those who believe in evolution from apes. I am sure you don’t believe this, at least I don’t think you do, but some scientists have proven that in their minds, as Darwin did. That is why evolution is taught in our schools instead of the Creation. I don’t know if the Garden of Eden is in Missouri, but because of the flood and Noah and his Ark, it is possible that original man started out on this continent. Who knows for sure and who really cares, except scientists who are trying to prove evolution and therefore prove the bible is just folk tales. I only know what I believe and I believe in the Creation, but I don’t know for a fact where in the world it took place.

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

I don’t know how this can be, but of course there are many who don’t agree with either theory, and that is why it is theory. How can it be that Adam originated 188,000 years ago and Eve 200,000 years ago.

It just means Eve was 22,000 years old when Adam was created. So she was probably even older when they had kids (say 22,010). Sheesh! That’s a TRULY old woman!!!