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tkdnick
Guest
BJ Colbert:
Jesus ascended into Heaven body and soul. He is still in bodily form.
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boppysbud
Guest
Actually BJ, I became a member of the LDS church at the age of 21 and left at 22.
I was ordained to the Aaronic priesthood first, as I assume all Mormons throught birth are.
I attended Elder’s Quorom’s meetings instead of Priesthood meetings, and I presume that I would have been ordained to the Mechisdech Eldership had I persisted in remaining in the LDS Church and proven myself worthy, but by that time I had found out some of the more unusual teachings of the Mormon church and had left it.
I was ordained to the Aaronic priesthood first, as I assume all Mormons throught birth are.
I attended Elder’s Quorom’s meetings instead of Priesthood meetings, and I presume that I would have been ordained to the Mechisdech Eldership had I persisted in remaining in the LDS Church and proven myself worthy, but by that time I had found out some of the more unusual teachings of the Mormon church and had left it.
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
Tkdnick,
Now you have me confused, I thought all this time Catholics do not believe that Jesus Christ, God the Father or the Holy Spirit have any bodies. They are all one huge spirit, not individuals, and have no body. God is a spirit who fills the universe but small enough to dwell in your heart and He, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one spirit. Now you say Jesus still has His body that He was resurrected with. Is this correct? Or is Jesus the Son separate from God the Father, so that He has a body, but God the Father doesn’t?
To answer your other question about Moroni. This is just my thinking, not official church information, but Moroni was the last man to write in the record of his people, and was one of only 24 persons of his tribe left after the great wars told about in the Book of Mormon. He wandered alone with the golden plates that they had kept the record on since leaving Jeruselem and traveling by ship to the American Continent in 600 BC. At the end of his life he had travelled to a place now known as New York, there he made a box of stone sealed with a kind of cement and buried the plates and the urim and thumim with a breast plate in the box.
After God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith when he was 14 years old, Moroni appeared to him as an Angel several times and gave him instructions about the plates before showing him the location. This all took 4 years, he finally got the plates and started translating with the Urim and Thummim.
Since Moroni was the messenger, the author of the last chapter in the Book of Mormon, and bearer of the Golden Plates to Joseph Smith, we have a statue of him on the top of the steeples of all of our Temples.
I have to say the same as Joseph Smith, when he was being persecuted by the people around him for saying he had seen a vision. “He said he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise:and though they persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.”
And as we know he and his brother were murdered by a mob after being incarcerated in the Carthage jail for his strange beliefs.
I believe this story with all my heart and to believe otherwise would be to deny the testimony that God has planted in my heart. It would be the same as to deny God, and to deny God once I have known Him would make me a son(daughter) of perdition.
To me it makes so much sense, I have seen the lands of the Book of Mormon, travelling to Central, and South America and Mexico. I have seen the pyramids in Egypt and in Mexico and Central America and the profuse gold artifacts. They used gold as we would use copper or silver, it was common. There is a very good book called “Lost Empires” (living tribes) published by the National Geographic Society in 1982, that describes in word and photo these Book of Mormon people(it doesn’t call them that). Joseph Smith did not know about these people at age 14 and not many people really know about them now. and as the NGS says in this book, “after years of excavation only a fraction of the city of Tikal in Guatemala has been excavated. It is 50 square miles and most of it still lies unexplored beneath the jungle”.
Such an interesting topic and I have been fascinated by Archeology since I was 7 years old and read “Tutankhamen”.
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
Boppysbud,
Thank you for clarifying, that you were only a member for one year, that explains your confusion over the priesthood. You are right you would have been ordained to the Aaronic first and as an adult you would have attended Elder’s quorom meetings. They ordain adult men as Priests, and skip Deacon and Teacher as those are 12 year olds and 14 year olds. You would have been ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood as an Elder if you had stayed in the church. That is the final step unless, as I said, you are called to be a Bishop of a ward(congregation) or a Seventy, or Apostle or The Prophet of the Church.
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boppysbud
Guest
BJ, I have to confess that I found a lot of LDS teachings to be confusing, and as I got further into the religion and discovered the more outre teachings (the “meat” as opposed to “milk”) I found them to be contradictory to each other. When I was first re-baptised I thought that Mormons were main-stream Christians, but I soon learned differently.
BTW the LDS lay hierarchy is much more complicated than the Catholic ministerial hierarchy.
Catholics have deacons, priests, and bishops (yes even the Pope is a Bishop).
Mormons have teachers, deacons, priests, elders, high priests, patriarchs, seventies, the First Presidency, and then the “prophetm seer, and revelator”.
BTW the LDS lay hierarchy is much more complicated than the Catholic ministerial hierarchy.
Catholics have deacons, priests, and bishops (yes even the Pope is a Bishop).
Mormons have teachers, deacons, priests, elders, high priests, patriarchs, seventies, the First Presidency, and then the “prophetm seer, and revelator”.
R
rich123456
Guest
DNA vs The Book of Mormon
If you have not yet seen this video you really should.
I think you will appreciate the writing to the right of the picture and the links.
catholic-rcia.com/pages/DNA_Mormon.html
Let me know
God Bless
For more than 170 years, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has declared The Book of Mormon to be a scriptural and literal history. Subtitled “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” it recounts the story of an Israelite family who emigrated to and populated the American continents. Jesus, after his death and resurrection, is said to have visited this once great Israelite civilization existing in the Americas.
The Book of Mormon teaches that these Israelites are the principal ancestors of modern-day Native Americans. New discoveries in DNA research currently allow scientists to test this historical claim. Thousands of Native Americans from more than 150 tribes have been genetically tested to determine their ancestry.
Mormonism’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith, once said, “I told the brethren that The Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion…” Now the same DNA evidence used in courts of law can credibly speak to the validity of The Book of Mormon, which serves as the foundation of the Mormon religion. The evidence answers one basic question: Are Israelites the principal ancestors of Native Americans?
DNA vs. The Book of Mormon presents the evidence from DNA researchers, including Mormon scientists who are wrestling with the DNA dilemma that now faces Mormonism. In the end, God is faithful to once again make the truth plain to those who are willing to take an honest look.
Rich
www.catholic-rcia.com
If you have not yet seen this video you really should.
I think you will appreciate the writing to the right of the picture and the links.
catholic-rcia.com/pages/DNA_Mormon.html
Let me know
God Bless
For more than 170 years, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has declared The Book of Mormon to be a scriptural and literal history. Subtitled “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” it recounts the story of an Israelite family who emigrated to and populated the American continents. Jesus, after his death and resurrection, is said to have visited this once great Israelite civilization existing in the Americas.
The Book of Mormon teaches that these Israelites are the principal ancestors of modern-day Native Americans. New discoveries in DNA research currently allow scientists to test this historical claim. Thousands of Native Americans from more than 150 tribes have been genetically tested to determine their ancestry.
Mormonism’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith, once said, “I told the brethren that The Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion…” Now the same DNA evidence used in courts of law can credibly speak to the validity of The Book of Mormon, which serves as the foundation of the Mormon religion. The evidence answers one basic question: Are Israelites the principal ancestors of Native Americans?
DNA vs. The Book of Mormon presents the evidence from DNA researchers, including Mormon scientists who are wrestling with the DNA dilemma that now faces Mormonism. In the end, God is faithful to once again make the truth plain to those who are willing to take an honest look.
Rich
www.catholic-rcia.com
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Exporter
Guest
rich123456,
I have read the Book of Morman maybe 75% of it. I read that Jesus came and appeared as a very tall figure to one tribe.
How tall was he and how long did he stay. Do you know?
I have read the Book of Morman maybe 75% of it. I read that Jesus came and appeared as a very tall figure to one tribe.
How tall was he and how long did he stay. Do you know?
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Sophie
Guest
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Sophie
Guest
Getting back to the question whether Mormons believe God has a physical body, the Bible of course teaches that God is not a man, but is a spirit:
Numbers: 23:19, “God is not a man that he should lie: neither the son of man that He should repent.”
Hosea 11:9, “I am God, not a man.”
John 4:24, Jesus says, “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.”
Luke 24:39, Jesus explains, “A spirit has not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.”
Even the Book of Mormon never says God has a body of flesh and bones. It clearly teaches that God is a God of spirit (Alma 18:2-5, 24-28: Alma 22:9-11.) Which, of course, is a total contradiction of Mormon beliefs. But this is typical. Many of Mormonisms beliefs are contradicted by the Book of Mormon!!!
Numbers: 23:19, “God is not a man that he should lie: neither the son of man that He should repent.”
Hosea 11:9, “I am God, not a man.”
John 4:24, Jesus says, “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.”
Luke 24:39, Jesus explains, “A spirit has not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.”
Even the Book of Mormon never says God has a body of flesh and bones. It clearly teaches that God is a God of spirit (Alma 18:2-5, 24-28: Alma 22:9-11.) Which, of course, is a total contradiction of Mormon beliefs. But this is typical. Many of Mormonisms beliefs are contradicted by the Book of Mormon!!!
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
I agree,God is Spirit. But God chose to manifest Himself through the Flesh of His Son Jesus Christ. Everything from above is spirit including satan. And just like satan at the garden who chose to reveal himself through the snake. One must take on a body to reveal his spirit.We physically cannot see spirits. That is why no one has every seen God the Father. 
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
I have heard this and have wondered about the accuracy of DNA…
Since I don’t have this video, is there another place to check, a book to buy or ??? Can a check of DNA on me tell that I am a mixture of English, Irish, Scots, and Danish? How does DNA decipher all of the bloodlines? I am just really curious? And since there was a lot of intermarriage over 2000 years with Asia and other tribes who migrated could DNA separate the blood of each tribe and tell which nationalities were in the bloodlines? If you find a DNA expert who can explain this please let me know. Thank you for the information. I will have my husband go to a Catholic bookstore and see if we can get the video you have recommended, I would like to see how they did the DNA tests and just what DNA has the capability of showing in regards to bloodlines. I know the LDS church uses DNA in genealogy research, so I will ask the genealogy researchers about this.
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Shiann
Guest
BJ Colbert:
So yes, scientists and anthropologists can track races/tribes/families with near certainty.
More information from non-religious genealogy site:
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/genetics.html
These researchers track DNA genealogy through mitochondrial DNA or the DNA we receive exclusively from our mother. By noting the subtle genetic mutations in certain races scientists are able to trace bloodlines as far back as they have DNA samples.
So yes, scientists and anthropologists can track races/tribes/families with near certainty.
More information from non-religious genealogy site:
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/genetics.html
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BJ_Colbert
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PaulDupre
Guest
BJ Colbert:
This is one of those big Mormon lies that you people keep telling over and over.
The truth is that all Christians - Catholics and Protestants alike - have always believed as the bible teaches that Jesus, though God, “for us and for our salvation” was born as a man. He died on the cross and was **resurrected bodily ** on the 3rd day. He ascended into heaven, with his resurrected body, and is there to this day.
Jesus’ resurrected body is as physical and tangible as yours, but His is glorified and perfected.
There is only ONE GOD, but GOD EXISTS (as He always has) AS 3 DISTINCT PERSONS (not 3 separate gods).
If you ever wonder why Christians have such a viscerally negative reaction to Mormonism, you need look no further than this.
Paul
BJ,
This is one of those big Mormon lies that you people keep telling over and over.
The truth is that all Christians - Catholics and Protestants alike - have always believed as the bible teaches that Jesus, though God, “for us and for our salvation” was born as a man. He died on the cross and was **resurrected bodily ** on the 3rd day. He ascended into heaven, with his resurrected body, and is there to this day.
Jesus’ resurrected body is as physical and tangible as yours, but His is glorified and perfected.
There is only ONE GOD, but GOD EXISTS (as He always has) AS 3 DISTINCT PERSONS (not 3 separate gods).
- God the Father is a spirit, as the bible says (John 4:24)
- Jesus is God the Son, the only begotten of the Father in the spirit. Jesus still has, as the bible teaches, His resurrected physical body. (Luke 24:36-51)
- The Holy Spirit is, well, a spirit.
is directly from the pre-1990 version of the endowment, in which a campy protestant minister lampoons Christian doctrines. It was so insulting to new converts and caused such a mass exodus from the LDS Church that it was cut from the endowment (along with the blood oaths).
If you ever wonder why Christians have such a viscerally negative reaction to Mormonism, you need look no further than this.
Paul
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tkdnick
Guest
BJ Colbert:
I hope that helps you some to understand the concept of Trinity. And I would ask if any of my Catholic bretheren can expound on this topic in a CHARITABLE way, please add anything more you think may help.
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ has a body. He ascended to heaven body AND soul. We believe that God the father and the Holy Spirit do not have bodies. I think you have a slightly misinformed view of our Trinity (as do many, including some Catholics). I do not claim to know how all this works, which would be the reason it is called a mystery. However, the exact thinking of the Trinity is this…three separate persons in one being. How is that possible? How does that work? I can’t answer for certainty partly because I am no scripture scholar/theologian, and because the Bible tells us - “Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?” - Job 11:7-8. It is impossible for us fallen humans to possibly understand the deep workings/knowledge/plans of God. Someone can obviously use the Bible to show several passages that infer this concept of Trinity, yet there is nothing that comes out and says “God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one being.” However, it DOES say in the Book of Mormon “God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God”. Sorry that I don’t have actual reference points, and that may not be the EXACT wording, but it is VERY close. I know that I read that at least twice (maybe more) and I didn’t even read half of the BoM. What does that mean to you if not that they are actually 1 God? If I were to take the BoM as scripture, that would only further my strength in belief of the Trinity (three persons - one being).
I hope that helps you some to understand the concept of Trinity. And I would ask if any of my Catholic bretheren can expound on this topic in a CHARITABLE way, please add anything more you think may help.
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Monarchy
Guest
Veronica Anne:
Oh No, we can’t have that.
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Sophie
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BYU-BOY
Guest
Wow, has this thread been interesting to read. So, interesting that I am suspending my paper that I have to have done by tomorrow to respond. Actually my paper topic is this:
“Succinctly summarize the Mormon doctrine of divine embodiment. Then set out as clearly and as persuasively as you can what you consider to be the most formidable philosophical objection against the doctrine and the most compelling response.”
So, in actuality your dialog has been quite helpful as I finish up the loose ends on this topic. I am Senior in Philosophy at BYU emphasizing on world religion. I must admit that I am somewhat ignorant to Catholicism but I have done some studies on St. Augustine and other early church leaders. Yet, I would still consider myself a novice when it comes to your theology.
May I offer a bit advice on this forum that will help clear up some misconceptions? There is one thing that both Mormons and Catholics have in common. That is the belief that the Bible is Holy Scripture. This allows for some common ground for us to build on. We have already established that Mormons believe that God has a physical resurrected body. Then why not establish the Bible to be the criterion to understand why Mormons believe that God is corporeal being!
With that said I would also like to answer any questions that you may have concerning Mormon doctrine. If I don’t know the answer I have access to some of the greatest scholars on LDS theology. My upper division for Philosophy of Religion (the class that is requiring the above subject) is taught by Dr. David Paulsen. Dr. Paulsen is the leading academic authority in the church on God’s divine embodiment and other so called “radical” church doctrine.
I am quite familiar to people disagreeing with my views and beliefs. So, I invite Paul and others to be open with their questions and thoughts. However, after being a missionary for two years in Southern California the one thing that I have learned is that God does answer sincere and honest prayers. If you really want to know if what I am sharing is true then temporal logic will only carry you so far (and sometimes too far). The best way to learn about God is to ask him!
“Succinctly summarize the Mormon doctrine of divine embodiment. Then set out as clearly and as persuasively as you can what you consider to be the most formidable philosophical objection against the doctrine and the most compelling response.”
So, in actuality your dialog has been quite helpful as I finish up the loose ends on this topic. I am Senior in Philosophy at BYU emphasizing on world religion. I must admit that I am somewhat ignorant to Catholicism but I have done some studies on St. Augustine and other early church leaders. Yet, I would still consider myself a novice when it comes to your theology.
May I offer a bit advice on this forum that will help clear up some misconceptions? There is one thing that both Mormons and Catholics have in common. That is the belief that the Bible is Holy Scripture. This allows for some common ground for us to build on. We have already established that Mormons believe that God has a physical resurrected body. Then why not establish the Bible to be the criterion to understand why Mormons believe that God is corporeal being!
With that said I would also like to answer any questions that you may have concerning Mormon doctrine. If I don’t know the answer I have access to some of the greatest scholars on LDS theology. My upper division for Philosophy of Religion (the class that is requiring the above subject) is taught by Dr. David Paulsen. Dr. Paulsen is the leading academic authority in the church on God’s divine embodiment and other so called “radical” church doctrine.
I am quite familiar to people disagreeing with my views and beliefs. So, I invite Paul and others to be open with their questions and thoughts. However, after being a missionary for two years in Southern California the one thing that I have learned is that God does answer sincere and honest prayers. If you really want to know if what I am sharing is true then temporal logic will only carry you so far (and sometimes too far). The best way to learn about God is to ask him!
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leschornmom
Guest
I LOVE YOU!!!
That said. I’d be careful about what you offer certain people on this thread… Don’t let them Bully you and good luck! You’ll need it!
Your LDS Sister
Erica
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Katholikos
Guest
BYU-BOY wrote:
The LDS church believes that the Bible is “true only insofar as correctly translated” (Eighth Article of the Mormon Faith). And, to a Mormon, only the King James Version as “corrected” by Joseph Smith in about 1830 to conform to the tenents of his new religion is “correctly translated.”
The Catholic Bible contains 73 writings. The KJV has only 66.
The Catholic Church is some 400 years older than the New Testament. The Church wrote the NT under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and formed the Bible.
The New Testament can only be correctly understood when it is read within the context of the teachings of the Church who wrote it.
The beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church did not come out of the New Testament, as is the case with all Protestants. Jesus Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the Church, before the NT ever existed. The doctrines of the CC came from the lips of the Apostles. The NT is the fruit of that teaching. Not everything the Apostles said got written down and canonized in a book. Some of what they taught the Church was preserved and transmitted through living Sacred Tradition. The Scriptures are themselves written oral tradition – that is true of both the OT and the NT. The Catholic Church deems both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as her Deposit of Faith.
So it’s not likely that you will be able to convince a Catholic who knows his Faith that God is an “exalted man.”
That’s not the Faith of the Apostles, and it is not the Faith of the Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world.
Peace be with you,
Jay
When a Mormon says “Bible” and a Catholic says “Bible” we are speaking about two different books.
The LDS church believes that the Bible is “true only insofar as correctly translated” (Eighth Article of the Mormon Faith). And, to a Mormon, only the King James Version as “corrected” by Joseph Smith in about 1830 to conform to the tenents of his new religion is “correctly translated.”
The Catholic Bible contains 73 writings. The KJV has only 66.
The Catholic Church is some 400 years older than the New Testament. The Church wrote the NT under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and formed the Bible.
The New Testament can only be correctly understood when it is read within the context of the teachings of the Church who wrote it.
The beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church did not come out of the New Testament, as is the case with all Protestants. Jesus Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the Church, before the NT ever existed. The doctrines of the CC came from the lips of the Apostles. The NT is the fruit of that teaching. Not everything the Apostles said got written down and canonized in a book. Some of what they taught the Church was preserved and transmitted through living Sacred Tradition. The Scriptures are themselves written oral tradition – that is true of both the OT and the NT. The Catholic Church deems both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as her Deposit of Faith.
So it’s not likely that you will be able to convince a Catholic who knows his Faith that God is an “exalted man.”
That’s not the Faith of the Apostles, and it is not the Faith of the Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world.
Peace be with you,
Jay
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