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Bahman
Guest
We cannot experience time since it does not exist, what we experience is changes in things. You can read more about time here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_%28arrow_of_time%29
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Bahman
Guest
The first action is equivalent to beginning of the time, there was no changes and time before the time of creation, so there is no beginning since any beginning is equivalent to another.
So we are all in a timeless state.
So in the time before the time there was no time.
And then something happened.
And now we have are in the time after the time that something happened, and there really is not time, just change.
But that is OK, because we perceive these changes to be time even though there really is not time.
If there really is no time, then God is just fine in the same timeless state we are all in.
He simply has the advantage of perceiving all of the changes at the same time.
Omniscience does that.
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Bahman
Guest
No, we and God live in state of time as it is described in original post or God is in state of death (timeless) since it cannot not perform any extra action including experiencing itself.
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Bahman
Guest
We cannot be in state of timeless as we experience changes. God cannot perceive all changes for two reasons, first future does not exist, even if we accept that future exist, then past, now and future exist as a mix since otherwise we have an arrow of time in timeless state which is illogical. This means that God cannot know a given state of creation represents past, now and future.
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Bahman
Guest
God cannot intervene in creation since otherwise omniscience is subject to change:
- Omniscience is state of knowledge of creation from eternity to eternity which is perfect and not subject of change
- God action requires a change in state of creation which leads to a change in state of knowledge
- Summing 1 and 2 means either God omniscient is not perfect since it needs God action or omniscience is perfect and no further action is allowed since it is against omniscience perfection
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ServantPD
Guest
Are you asserting your position on time based on thermodynamics? What about things that show how time manifests itself in things such as special relativity and the acceleration or deceleration of time according to our own acceleration through space? Is that a non-existent factor on how movements are calculated, or is it a necessary measure when dealing with spacetime when studying cosmology, as it has turned out to be, ever since the speed of light was calculated and the concept of relativity was developed?
And you really can’t place time in the same terms where you can place such as the world we know. God isn’t “present” physically, and he’s eternal metaphysically. Such as you don’t know how time rolls out in metaphysical terms, no matter how you try to assume so with a proper comparison of the physical laws that God created. You have to think a bit outside of the box, and you neither are you doing that (as you only experienced physical places, and you’re trying to conclude things parting from it), nor do we have the minimal information about how metaphysics is, per se. So I see no point in doing this discussion…
Having created it all, and being outside of it, God knows the entirety.
Having created it, it is subject to his will, and God can do what he will with it.
We, being subject to the confines of creation, must experience one moment at a time.
Anything further seeks to limit God to the confines of his creation, and is therefore illogical.
If as you stated, time does not exist, then we are in a state of timeless.
You cannot have it both ways.
po18guy
Well-known member
Couple of things: You are looking at eternity as a snapshot. Rather, it is the eternal present. You are looking at it from the human, rather than the divine side.
As well, we cannot experience timelessness and so cannot state with certainty what it is or is not. Our base, our foundation in this life is time. That limits and skews our perception of all things.
Now, if you want to state that God can only do one thing, you may be right in a sense: He can only exist. All else (even time) is subsidiary to that existence, whether you or I can perceive motion, action or any other time-related traits of our existence and experience.
We have gone from God being unable to experience to God being timeless, to time not existing, and finally to God is dead.
All with no evidence other then your own thoughts.
I suspect in the fullness of time you will find the errors in the line of reasoning.
Others have pointed out the flaws in a logical fashion, but logic has little to do with will.
And until someone is willing to see beyond their own logic, they won’t.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
That is quite entertaining why you don’t try some. By the way what is wrong with the argument.
Once again, you can’t judge anything about God by human logic. Those bound by time don’t know any thing about what can or can’t be done in eternal time. We can only know by what He has revealed.Linus2bd
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
God’s knowledge, will , and act are all one eternal act. He created us in His now. All one eternal act. And creation is not a change, it is a spontaneous " popping " into existence, whereas there were no creatures before that first moment.
Linus2nd
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bzkoss236
Guest
Your second premise is flawed.
It would only be true if God were subject to time, because for there to be a change, time would be involved because there would be a state where something hasn’t happened and a state in which it did happen. This isn’t the case.
It would be more correct to think of it like this. Think of the universe as a piece of paper and there is a fork stabbed into the paper which interacts with the paper at different points on the paper, or intersects the paper. This is similar to how God interacts with the universe. We’ve mentioned this to you before. God interacts with the universe at every point in time, and in God’s omniscience, he sees every point in time and thereby knows what is happening at every point in time and how is interaction affects each point in time.
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TARRAT
Guest
God is not confined by our imagination.
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bsroufek
Guest
God is always with His people, helping them, from Creation to eternity. So, it is only fitting and to His glory that He is merciful and gracious to His people through Divine intervention.
Your hypothesis and logic are flawed, as though God would begin Creation and then abandon His people to the “beggarly elements” until the end of time.
Your hypothesis and logic are flawed, as though God would begin Creation and then abandon His people to the “beggarly elements” until the end of time.
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Beryllos
Guest
Bahman, I think this is the flaw in your argument: Your start with a definition of change that is based solely on time. I think this is arbitrary and needlessly restrictive. It may be possible to describe, if not envision, change outside of time. For example, if you think of time as a geometric dimension, you could have other “time-like” dimensions, or perhaps other spaces, in which change is possible.
Consider movement on the surface of the earth, and think of the north-going Zax (from the Dr. Seuss story, The Zax). It is in his nature to walk always north. He cannot move east, west, or south. As far as he is concerned, change is only possible in a northerly direction. If he continues to walk north, eventually he will come to the North Pole. Then he will stop. He will be unable to move, because no direction is north, every direction is south, and he is a north-going Zax.
He may then say “Where there is no north, no movement is possible.” For him, this is true. However, it is not true for you and me and many other creatures. From the North Pole, we certainly cannot move north, but we can move in any southerly direction, and we can also rise or descend in altitude.
This analogy has its philosophical and theological limitations. It is certainly not adequate to describe God or eternity. However, I think it shows the arbitrariness and the limitations of defining change solely in terms of time.
Consider movement on the surface of the earth, and think of the north-going Zax (from the Dr. Seuss story, The Zax). It is in his nature to walk always north. He cannot move east, west, or south. As far as he is concerned, change is only possible in a northerly direction. If he continues to walk north, eventually he will come to the North Pole. Then he will stop. He will be unable to move, because no direction is north, every direction is south, and he is a north-going Zax.
He may then say “Where there is no north, no movement is possible.” For him, this is true. However, it is not true for you and me and many other creatures. From the North Pole, we certainly cannot move north, but we can move in any southerly direction, and we can also rise or descend in altitude.
This analogy has its philosophical and theological limitations. It is certainly not adequate to describe God or eternity. However, I think it shows the arbitrariness and the limitations of defining change solely in terms of time.
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edwest2
Guest
God can intervene whenever He wants.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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