God in timelss state cannot know what is the current time

[Bahman]

At Pentecost, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within us. The Holy Spirit is
the third Person of the Blessed Trinity-the one God. If he sent the Holy Spirit to
dwell within us, then, the third Person of the Trinity-God- has to be working within us, all of creation, in time because we are in time. So God does and is quite capable of entering our time and space.

Holly spirit (one person of God) cannot dwell with us because of the problem so called interface which state that God and creation are separated from each other since one is in state of timeless and another in state of time and it is logically impossible to fuse these two quality together.

 

[Bahman]

When people say that God exists outside of time. What they mean is God is not restricted to the moment of “Now” God can move within or outside of time, because it is a construct which He created.

Time is a imaginary concept that we attach it to changes. It is not a real thing so it cannot be created. It was not created so God cannot go inside and outside of it.

 

[Bahman]

What do you think God is? Some human in another timeless state.

The God who creates the universe out of NOTHING. (Yeah nothing at all)

Knows the time in every solar system galaxy and the universe.

He knows that you are reading this right now at a time given it by humans.

He knows what each cell in your body is doing right now.

Are you trying to make an argument?

 

[lakotak]

**Holly spirit (one person of God) cannot dwell with us **because of the problem so called interface which state that God and creation are separated from each other since one is in state of timeless and another in state of time and it is logically impossible to fuse these two quality together.

So you are essentially saying that Jesus Christ lied to us at Pentecost when He said “receive the Holy Spirit” and the Spirit of God came to rest on each one in the room as a tongue of fire. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[Bahman]

What do you mean causally separated from creation? God is the cause of creation.

I mean any God can perform only one action which is creation and after that it is causally separated from creation since performing second action has conflict with state of timeless. Why? Because two actions one followed by another define a direction in occurrence of two events which is meaningless when God is in state of timeless since there is no before and after in this state.

All times, past present and future, are now to God. That’s how he is aware of what’s going on here.

This is total nonsense for three strong reasons:

1. The sole reality is that we are experiencing things at the moment so called now, past is dead and we have memory of it, future does not exist.
2. Assuming that God has knowledge of past, now and future; this means that each state of creation is known by God as a frame but God has no knowledge which frame present the current moment (as it was discussed).
3. Regarding previous primes, God cannot perform any action on creation since states of creation is already known by God so any action changes what God knows which is anomaly. It is an anomaly since either God knowledge is perfect then its action cannot change it or God knowledge changes by action then God knowledge is not perfect.

 

[Bahman]

Your whole idea of God, which you’ve tried to verbalize in all your threads, is extremely restrictive and limited to your human understanding and experience. You’re trying to squash God down into a tiny box when he is so far beyond anything you can put your mind around. You need to switch your thinking around. First know and accept that God is God and is capable of everything and anything. Then realize that if you conceptualize anything that you doubt God can do, accept that it’s not God’s deficiency in power but your deficiency in understanding.

Nah, God cannot do something which is logically impossible.

 

[Bahman]

That is a non sequitur, the creator of something does not need to be IN-IT in order to fully comprehend what is ocurring INSIDE His creation.
It is called OMNISCIENCY.

The Creator of the Universe of which time is a component, knows the exact position at any given moment the position of the electron orbiting the proton of any Hidrogen atom anywhere in the Universe since it was created. And He knows the same for all the Atoms of all the matter present in the Universe.
Because He created it.
How do we know that He does? Well He is the one that decides when to make His prescence felt and interact with His creation. Or do you believe that Jesus’s birth date for example was a random act?
Wait! do you believe in Jesus?

–

There is no place to discuss omniscience in this thread. An argument is made in the beginning of this thread, and you are free to judge and discuss the argument. The argument is very simple, time has three properties, nowness, direction, and rate which is logically impossible for a being in state of timeless to experience it. Simple, timeless means no time, so it is logically impossible to fuse a being/God in state of timeless to something is state of time.

God can only have one action which is creation and not more since second action by definition define a direction (time) which is impossible in state of timeless. So God cannot come and incarnate as Jesus since that requires second action.

 

[seagal]

Nah, God cannot do something which is logically impossible.

I assumed that went without saying

 

[Bahman]

This is all good and fine, except, that the present must be willed by God in order to exist. And if something is willed by God it ceases to be a possibility and becomes true for God.

Creation is absolutely perfect and does need anything to role around.

 

[Bahman]

As soon as one asks " What time is it?" the time has changed. God does not change and therefore He is outside****** time (-which is a measurement of change-) which He created.

Time cannot be created.

 

[Bahman]

But God created time. He knows what it is. Being omniscient is like that.

Also, if He didn’t know what it was, He would not have been able to enter time, nor would He have become incarnate “in the fullness of time”.

But indeed, it’s a great mystery.

There is no mystery my friend. First time cannot be created. God can do only things which are logically possible. Creation is one act that God can perform, performing second act, entering to creation and incarnate as a man is the second action which define a direction (time) for God being in state of timeless which is logically impossible.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

There is no mystery my friend. First time cannot be created. God can do only things which are logically possible. Creation is one act that God can perform, performing second act, entering to creation and incarnate as a man is the second action which define a direction (time) for God being in state of timeless which is logically impossible.

But there is no such thing as time, so it is not a problem at all.
Time is just an abstraction for measuring the rate of movement of something, for example.
But it does not actually exist as a substance to be believed in or not. Or to exist in or not.

 

[Bahman]

But there is no such thing as time, so it is not a problem at all.
Time is just an abstraction for measuring the rate of movement of something, for example.
But it does not actually exist as a substance to be believed in or not. Or to exist in or not.

Exactly, time doesn’t exist and it cannot be created. The concept of time is already defined. I don’t understand how people could use the concept of in and out of time!?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not being a physicist or a theologian, perhaps I shouldn’t comment at all.

Still, we are informed by physicists that time is a “thing”; a property of how the universe works. As believers, we understand that God created all “things”.

If God created “time”, then “time” is simply one of the vast number of things that exist in His mind, and that are under His control.

Seems to me this isn’t a lot different in concept from the way a timekeeper in ball game functions; just at a massively different level. The timekeeper isn’t “telling time” with his stopwatch. The precise time of day does not control his mind or his function. He is regulating an aspect of the game.

In saying God cannot understand time because He, Himself is outside time is not different from saying He cannot create matter because He is immaterial.

 

[Bahman]

Not being a physicist or a theologian, perhaps I shouldn’t comment at all.

Still, we are informed by physicists that time is a “thing”; a property of how the universe works. As believers, we understand that God created all “things”.

If God created “time”, then “time” is simply one of the vast number of things that exist in His mind, and that are under His control.

Seems to me this isn’t a lot different in concept from the way a timekeeper in ball game functions; just at a massively different level. The timekeeper isn’t “telling time” with his stopwatch. The precise time of day does not control his mind or his function. He is regulating an aspect of the game.

In saying God cannot understand time because He, Himself is outside time is not different from saying He cannot create matter because He is immaterial.

Time cannot be created so it cannot exist in mind of God.

 

[JerryZ]

Exactly, time doesn’t exist and it cannot be created. The concept of time is already defined. I don’t understand how people could use the concept of in and out of time!?

WOW :bigyikes: That is a momentous declaration on your part.

Please do show us some concrete proof you have to able to assert that “time doesn’t exist”.

If you have achieved this feat, you are probably going to be nominated to the Nobel in Physics.
On the other hand. We can prove that God can interact with us at any given instant He chooses of the universe existance, without having to mess with “time”.
Just by the contingency principle.

–

 

[Bahman]

So you are essentially saying that Jesus Christ lied to us at Pentecost when He said “receive the Holy Spirit” and the Spirit of God came to rest on each one in the room as a tongue of fire. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you believe in the Trinity?

No offence, I do believe that Jesus was a man like others. As it is explained before, it is logically impossible that God perform creation then come and incarnate as a man, since this requires two consecutive actions from God which is logically impossible from a being in state of timeless.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think we are all tackling this the wrong way.

Why do you believe God is in a timeless state?

To say he is outside of out concept of time does not mean he is in a timeless state as you define it.

 

[Jon_S_1]

No offence, I do believe that Jesus was a man like others. As it is explained before, it is logically impossible that God perform creation then come and incarnate as a man, since this requires two consecutive actions from God which is logically impossible from a being in state of timeless.

Is it logically possible to understand

How God created from nothing?
How God is infinite?

No, at least not with our current mental abilities.

But who are we to say God must be constrained to our logical abilities.

 

[catholictiger]

WOW :bigyikes: That is a momentous declaration on your part.

Please do show us some concrete proof you have to able to assert that “time doesn’t exist”.

If you have achieved this feat, you are probably going to be nominated to the Nobel in Physics.
On the other hand. We can prove that God can interact with us at any given instant He chooses of the universe existance, without having to mess with “time”.
Just by the contingency principle.

–

I’m late to the discussion but it depends on what you mean by time existing. Does time have its own separate existence in the universe? does it have matter and form?

I don’t think time exists and let me explain. Time requires a measurement, it takes me 1 min to walk from my room to the kitchen, or 20 seconds to read a psalm verse at mass. If there is no measurement there is no time. There is a problem though with this, the “time” it takes me to go from my room to the kitchen I’m no longer existing in my room. The person who existed in my room no longer exists I now exist in the kitchen. To make the point clearer 200 years ago people who existed then no longer exist (don’t think of heaven here that existence is different than what was there when they actually existed). So to claim time exists in the real world is problematic because being only exist in the present. How can I possibly know that 1 min passes when 1 min ago no longer exists? Another problem you say that I will eat lunch in 20 minuets. But how can you know that you will eat lunch in 20 minuets when that doesn’t yet exist. So the past doesn’t exist and the future has yet to exist. Another problem is that the present which is the only place where things exist (not considering heaven here) has no length and can’t be messured. Try and measure the present, to even say that one second of time has past requires use of the past which no longer exists. The present is a passing state of things coming into existence and going out of existence. It has no length and can’t be measured.

So to summarize the issue, you can’t measure things in the past because they no longer exist. You can’t measure the future because it has yet to exist. Lastly you can’t measure the present because it has no length you have nothing to measure. So how can we say that time exists when we can’t measure it and time is a measurement.

I say time exists in the mind only. It is a concept we put on things in the natural world. It’s how we make sense of the passing moments of life. When can say that we take 1 min to walk to the kitchen because we have memory of being in our rooms and we are able to have a memory of the amount of moments that have passed. We can say that in 20 minuets I will eat lunch because we anticipate the future. Lastly we engage the present. Time is a mental being not a real being.

Space is similar its a mental concept used to make sense of the world around us.

Note: I’m not being foundational about this things have existence in the world, its just time and space that are mental concepts.