God in timelss state cannot know what is the current time

[runningdude]

Could you please give me a definition God omniscience so we start from there?

Let me start with this definition

1. Omniscience is the capacity to know everything that there is to know.
2. God action would change the state of creation and so change state of knowledge.
3. So God cannot perform any action.

Omniscience is an integral attribute of God’s divine nature, and does not exist in a vacuum. Rather it is exist as one attribute among many, including omnipotence, which is the capacity to do everything that can be done.

One key point that you have overlooked is that God voluntarily surrendered some of his agency when he created free will. He allowed his creation to choose to reject him, and by extension, embrace evil. God did not create beings destined to choose hell; rather hell was chosen perfectly freely.

Since there are beings voluntarily outside of God’s agency, there is capacity to capacity to intervene to influence them. His omnipotence is not violated, because this knowledge is voluntarily beyond his capacity to know.

The key here is that this is voluntary on God’s part; free will exists solely at God’s discretion. God is omnipotent and could revoke it, at anytime. He however made a covenant with humanity, through his Son, Jesus Christ, that precludes such a possibility before the end of time.

 

[JerryZ]

Free will has noting to do with random effect and Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics is deterministic as far as we don’t mess with the measurement. I mean the Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation, so state of a thing evolve deterministically until it is disturbed by measurement. From God point of view thing has to evolve determinstically since otherwise it oppose God omniscience.

Oh now we are going to apply quantum mechanics theory to bind God and ourselves in the outcome of our choices.

That is nonsense. In regular physics I can measure the values of reactions without affecting the outcome of said reactions.

Example I want to measure the thermal energy given of the reaction between HCl and Na, this in an exothermal reaction. I place a thermometer and read the increase in temperature of the vessel were the reaction takes place.
Me measuring the temperature increase, does not affect the result of the reaction, and in fact I can demonstrate mathematically this. Since I can calculate how much heat will be given off by it.
So you see Quantum mechanics theory does not help me here and neither it will, trying to explain the result of the interaction between God and His creation.

–

 

[Bahman]

Omniscience is an integral attribute of God’s divine nature, and does not exist in a vacuum. Rather it is exist as one attribute among many, including omnipotence, which is the capacity to do everything that can be done.

My point was exactly along this line that God omnipotence cannot confer with God omniscience so it is logically impossible for God to perform any action accepting omniscience as it is clearly stated in the argument.

Since there are beings voluntarily outside of God’s agency, there is capacity to capacity to intervene to influence them.

You mean to influence free will?

His omnipotence is not violated, because this knowledge is voluntarily beyond his capacity to know.

So you mean that God does not know everything? How it could properly act if it does not know everything?

 

[Bahman]

Oh now we are going to apply quantum mechanics theory to bind God and ourselves in the outcome of our choices.

I didn’t say so. I clearly mentioned “Free will has noting to do with random effect and Quantum Mechanics.”

That is nonsense. In regular physics I can measure the values of reactions without affecting the outcome of said reactions.
Example I want to measure the thermal energy given of the reaction between HCl and Na, this in an exothermal reaction. I place a thermometer and read the increase in temperature of the vessel were the reaction takes place.
Me measuring the temperature increase, does not affect the result of the reaction, and in fact I can demonstrate mathematically this. Since I can calculate how much heat will be given off by it.

You cannot unless your measurement apparatus is very small to your sample size experiment and that is the problem of measurement in quantum mechanics.

So you see Quantum mechanics theory does not help me here and neither it will, trying to explain the result of the interaction between God and His creation.​

I don’t understand what you proved but my argument was along the fact that creation evolve deterministically from God point of view since creation is made of things (that move based on laws of nature) and beings (that decide and God is aware of thier decisions), so God knows state of creation in later time given state of creation at earlier time.

 

[ServantPD]

Free will has noting to do with random effect and Quantum Mechanics. Quantum Mechanics is deterministic as far as we don’t mess with the measurement. I mean the Schrodinger equation is a deterministic equation, so state of a thing evolve deterministically until it is disturbed by measurement. From God point of view thing has to evolve determinstically since otherwise it oppose God omniscience.

QM is deterministic? I beg to differ that nonsense, and summon Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle…

The measurement we get, whitin certain borders, is completley random. If that’s the only data we get, you can’t assume that it’s determined until we simply try to look at it. We simply assume that the particle is in various positions at the same time until we look and force the particle to be in a certain, specific position. That’s far from deterministic…

And omniscience isn’t predicting te whole future, wholesale; that’s a logical absurdity. And that’s worse nonsense than before…

 

[Bahman]

QM is deterministic? I beg to differ that nonsense, and summon Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle…

Uncertainty principle is related to measurement stating that one cannot measure the position and momentum of a particle precisely at the same time.

The measurement we get, whitin certain borders, is completley random.

I don’t understand why we should bother with measurement until we want to understand how the system evolves. System evolves based on Schrodinger equation which is a deterministic equation until we intervene.

If that’s the only data we get, you can’t assume that it’s determined until we simply try to look at it. We simply assume that the particle is in various positions at the same time until we look and force the particle to be in a certain, specific position. That’s far from deterministic…

That is not far from deterministic. It is just complex.

And omniscience isn’t predicting te whole future, wholesale. That’s worse nonsense than before…

I said that creation evolves deterministically from God point of view knowing how things move and how beings decide.

 

[edwest2]

We can always buy him a clock.

Ed

 

[ServantPD]

Well, what you told me is pretty incoherent with the recent discoveries of the observer-dependency of QM laws. Anyway, I’ll just go ahead and drop the ace off my deck. Have fun with that

 

[runningdude]

My point was exactly along this line that God omnipotence cannot confer with God omniscience so it is logically impossible for God to perform any action accepting omniscience as it is clearly stated in the argument.

I have clearly stated that I do not accept your definition of omniscience.

You mean to influence free will?

God provides graces to overcome temptation to sin. It still must be a voluntary choice not to sin.

So you mean that God does not know everything? How it could properly act if it does not know everything?

God knows what choices were made; however God miraculously allowed these choices to be made freely. He voluntarily did not interfere with the choice to sin.

 

[Bahman]

I have clearly stated that I do not accept your definition of omniscience.

God provides graces to overcome temptation to sin. It still must be a voluntary choice not to sin.

God knows what choices were made; however God miraculously allowed these choices to be made freely. He voluntarily did not interfere with the choice to sin.

You give your definition omniscience please and we start from there.

 

[runningdude]

You give your definition omniscience please and we start from there.

Omniscience is an integral divine attribute. It can only be defined based on observed characteristics, such as:

• God is known to be omnipotent.
• God is known to have created beings with freewill.
• God is known to have intervened in history.

Since omniscience is itself an integral attribute of God, it must not conflict with other known attributes.

A possible definition, based the commentary already offered, is that omniscience is perfect knowledge of all processes in the universe, except those processes involved in freewill, which are voluntarily unobserved.

 

[Bahman]

God is known to be omnipotent.

This is subjected to if the action is logically possible. A God in state of timeless can only perform one action.

God is known to have created beings with freewill.

I agree. There is however a question related to creation of beings with free will, namely how God could create beings not knowing how do they act/function?

God is known to have intervened in history.

This is logically impossible for a God in state of timeless since consecutive actions define a sequence hence time in state of timeless.

A possible definition, based the commentary already offered, is that omniscience is perfect knowledge of all processes in the universe, except those processes involved in freewill, which are voluntarily unobserved.

I agree with this definition but still God in state of timeless cannot perform any extra action except creation as it is stated before unless we accept that God is in state of time. This is logical since God knowledge of our actions is subject of time.

 

[vz71]

I agree with this definition but still God in state of timeless cannot perform any extra action except creation as it is stated before unless we accept that God is in state of time. This is logical since God knowledge of our actions is subject of time.

The historic record states otherwise.

God has interacted with his creation.

If logic dictates what is known to have happened cannot have happened, then the logic is flawed.

 

[mytruepower2]

Here is the argument which prove God in timeless state cannot distinguish what is the current time:

1. Time is a concept related to occurrence of events with specific rate
2. There is time attached to series of events and now by definition is the time at which we experience events
3. There are a before and after for the events which means that time has a direction
4. Timeless mind state means, no events, there is no before and after so there is no sense of direction for time, there is no experience when there is no events so there no concept of now
5. God is in state of timeless means, he could not experience creation, he could not distinguish the direction of time, and he could not distinguish now

Problems…

Premise 1: If time is a concept, then is time mind-dependent? If it -is- mind-dependent, then “what is the current time” is just a fiction of ours, and would certainly not be known by God because of its falsehood.

Premise 2: If time is attached to events themselves, then what happens if the event is past? Is “presentness” a real thing, or just a means that we use to guage time, but not related to any real property of the object or event itself?

Premise 3: This seems unproven, unless by “before and after,” you’re referring to causal priority, and causal priority doesn’t imply that time flows in a certain order, or even that it flows at all.

Premise 4: As we have no experience with timelessness, this seems like the sort of thing that would be -very- difficult to prove.

Conclusion: If you mean that God does not see as “now” the same things we see as “now,” and doesn’t see anything as “past” or “future,” I’m inclined to agree, but because of the weakness in the premises, this argument doesn’t prove it.

 

[Bahman]

The historic record states otherwise.

Historic records state that there were tremendous number people who claimed they are Gods or has relation with Gods. History in this regard doesn’t prove anything.

God has interacted with his creation.

God in state of timeless cannot.

If logic dictates what is known to have happened cannot have happened, then the logic is flawed.

That means that one needs to doubt about what people said of what happened since logic cannot be false.

 

[ServantPD]

God in state of timeless cannot.

God’s qualities don’t fit with logical absurdities, ya know… And you really can’t argue that challenges His omnipotence, just rely on your common sense for a minute.

 

[Bahman]

Premise 1: If time is a concept, then is time mind-dependent? If it -is- mind-dependent, then “what is the current time” is just a fiction of ours, and would certainly not be known by God because of its falsehood.

It is a concept.

Premise 2: If time is attached to events themselves, then what happens if the event is past? Is “presentness” a real thing, or just a means that we use to guage time, but not related to any real property of the object or event itself?

Time is past if the event is past. The only real thing is the experiencing events at the spot where we call it present.

Premise 3: This seems unproven, unless by “before and after,” you’re referring to causal priority, and causal priority doesn’t imply that time flows in a certain order, or even that it flows at all.

Events that we experience flow in certain order hence the time as a concept attached to them.

Premise 4: As we have no experience with timelessness, this seems like the sort of thing that would be -very- difficult to prove.

There is no need for experiencing that state. The timeless state by definition is an state at which no change can occur in it. The occurrence of events implies changes so they are not permissible.

 

[Bahman]

God’s qualities don’t fit with logical absurdities, ya know… And you really can’t argue that challenges His omnipotence, just rely on your common sense for a minute.

God cannot do something which is logically impossible, can it?

 

[mytruepower2]

It is a concept.

Then is time mind-dependent? If it -is- mind-dependent, then “what is the current time” is just a fiction of ours, and would certainly not be known by God because of its falsehood.

Time is past if the event is past. The only real thing is the experiencing events at the spot where we call it present.

Why are you defending a tensed theory of time, if you think time is just a concept?

Events that we experience flow in certain order hence the time as a concept attached to them.

If you’re trying to defend a tensed theory of time, then there are no “events that flow in a certain order.” Things are either real (in the present,) or unreal (in the past or future,) but there’s no real progression, exactly. It’s just one event that changes.

In fact, it’s very hard to see, on the tensed theory, how the past could be causally-related to the present, since on the tensed theory, the present exists and the past doesn’t even have -potential- existence, the way the future does. If something doesn’t exist, it can have no causal powers.

As I’ve said before, I think the tensed theory is just a lost cause on several levels, and that’s why I refer to this misunderstanding of time as at the root of your problems with the knowledge of God. On my view, God doesn’t know tenses, because tenses are just an expression of the way we humans wrongly perceive time.

There is no need for experiencing that state. The timeless state by definition is an state at which no change can occur in it. The occurrence of events implies changes so they are not permissible.

Not at all. Timelessness is -larger- than time, not -smaller.- Therefore, while a timeless being wouldn’t -experience- change, they would be able to perceive all of the separate stages of that change, and those events, as though they were a series of images in a roll of film, strung up on a wall. However, -how- this would actually play out, or what the experience would be like is unknown. There are many different possible models, and without firsthand experience of timelessness, we can have no relevant evidence for which one is correct, unless you think we can reason to it through further syllogisms.

I’d be interested in seeing that attempted, actually.

 

[ServantPD]

God cannot do something which is logically impossible, can it?

We never asserted that God was disordered and did the logically impossible. If He did so, one would never conclude the existence of God in a rationally inteligible and ordered world. Besides, if we’re resorting to logic to conclude the existence of God, we cannot resort to logical absurdities to try and determine a logical impossibility.

Can I conclude that your existence is logically impossible if your qualities, at a certain point, reached any point of conflict? I thought not…