God is indifferent

[inocente]

It seems that freedom and free-will are being illogically conflated. The Jews freedom was taken away. However, their free will not hindered by the actions of their captures.

Free-will - The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion (OED).

Are you claiming those millions died of their own free-will? That they all freely willed to commit suicide?

 

[tonyrey]

Free-will - The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion (OED).

Are you claiming those millions died of their own free-will? That they all freely willed to commit suicide?

It was the exercise of their free will that was obstructed.Their executioners were probably in the same boat because the Nazis’ chain of command went right to the top. If they disobeyed orders they were shot - or worse…

 

[inocente]

Is it correct to say you believe God does permit unnecessary suffering?

If God only permits necessary suffering then the millions suffered necessarily and the Holocaust was justified.

The Holocaust was not justified.

Therefore God permits unnecessary suffering.

 

[tonyrey]

Is it correct to say you believe God does permit unnecessary suffering?

It doesn’t sound as if “like a weaned child” you are content…or “put your hope in the Lord”. If you do it seems you share Tertullian’s view: “Credo quia absurdum”…

 

[tonyrey]

If God only permits necessary suffering then the millions suffered necessarily and the Holocaust was justified.

The Holocaust was not justified.

Therefore God permits unnecessary suffering.

Then how can He possibly be a loving God?

 

[inocente]

It was the exercise of their free will that was obstructed.Their executioners were probably in the same boat because the Nazis’ chain of command went right to the top. If they disobeyed orders they were shot - or worse…

As I said, if god deceives us by hiding in the shadows to somehow protect our free-will, he could have miraculously caused a few heart attacks and stopped the chain of command, but didn’t. And I’m not going to engage in trying to redefine free-will to justify the Holocaust. When people try to justify the Holocaust, something is obscenely wrong.

 

[inocente]

Then how can He possibly be a loving God?

Other than dying for us?

A while back there was a poster who was raised Catho!ic but had decided that God is made of equal measures of dark energy and consciousness. He self-published a book of his theology. I helped him proof it. He wouldn’t listen when told his theology didn’t appear to make sense. He was sure it did. It didn’t. Just ruminating here .

 

[davidv]

Free-will - The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion (OED).

Are you claiming those millions died of their own free-will? That they all freely willed to commit suicide?

On what basis do you think I am making that claim? These are your words not mine.

 

[Faithdancer]

" Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made."
(Romans 1: 20)

“And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.”
(John 3: 19)

 

[Faithdancer]

You misunderstand. The defense lawyers do NOT BELIEVE that their client innocent, when then KNOW that he is guilty. They just participate in the complex GAME of the legal profession, where they try to finagle as low a sentence as they can, while the prosecutor attempts to bring as harsh a sentence as possible, even if they do not believe that the defendant is guilty of ALL the charges brought up against him.

It has nothing to do with holding two contradictory propositions in mind at the same time and consider them both of them to be TRUE.

minkymurph isn’t holding contradictory propositions at all. How can you possibly conclude that when minkymurph’s writing is completely lucid and stated in plain English?

 

[Faithdancer]

:clapping:
:clapping:There are many good atheists who accept and live according to the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity but they don’t realise those principles have no rational foundation in a Godless universe. Both Camus and Sartre became humanists after realising that their doctrine of absurdity is untenable when it comes to the question of how we should live. They inherited the Christian tradition that we are **all **brothers and sisters - which doesn’t make sense if we are related solely by an accident of birth. It isn’t God who is indifferent but people like Hitchens who believe Mother Teresa was doing more harm than good and fail to follow the teaching of Jesus that we should love others even though we are despised and persecuted for doing so. Long after he is forgotten she will be remembered and venerated as a saint for all that she did in Calcutta as the result of her self-sacrifice and devotion to the poor. Not for nothing is it called the City Of Joy…

And of course, “liberty, equality, and fraternity” are slogan-principles forever associated with the bloodbath that the French Revolution became. And (as I know you know, not trying to be preachy) they mean nothing at all, without faith that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

 

[inocente]

On what basis do you think I am making that claim? These are your words not mine.

You: It seems that freedom and free-will are being illogically conflated. The Jews freedom was taken away. However, their free will not hindered by the actions of their captures.

Me: Are you claiming those millions died of their own free-will? That they all freely willed to commit suicide?

I’m trying to understand how you think they had free-will. For example see this philosophy professor discussing some of the issues - blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=6440

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

You: It seems that freedom and free-will are being illogically conflated. The Jews freedom was taken away. However, their free will not hindered by the actions of their captures.

Me: Are you claiming those millions died of their own free-will? That they all freely willed to commit suicide?

I’m trying to understand how you think they had free-will. For example see this philosophy professor discussing some of the issues - blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=6440

Maybe I can help. There is a difference between the freedom of not being murdered by your captors and having the free will to chose to hate those captors or pray for their conversion.

 

[inocente]

Maybe I can help. There is a difference between the freedom of not being murdered by your captors and having the free will to chose to hate those captors or pray for their conversion.

Hi. I can’t see your logic. If those six million people were not industrially slaughtered then they wouldn’t have been forced to choose. Is it justice to claim a terrified person has free will? She’s urinating herself in terror as she’s being gassed to death, how can she possibly have free will?

 

[petra22]

Please answer one simple question:

Does God permit unnecessary suffering?

That descriptive word is yours… not God’s (unnecessary). Perhaps it is necessary to prove to people that their decision to live without God or without listening to God or not inviting God in… (talking about the decision of Adam and Eve–it was our first parents’ fault that they chose to know GOOD AND EVIL! Then they would become gods, according to the serpent…) Actions have consequences… We are not God and often we show him by our actions that we don’t want anything to do with him…

 

[tonyrey]

If God only permits necessary suffering then the millions suffered necessarily and the Holocaust was justified.

Then how can He possibly be a loving God? :eek:       [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/quote.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=14481016)Then how can He possibly be a loving God? :eek:

Other than dying for us?

Please explain why God permits unnecessary suffering and then dies for us?

 

[tonyrey]

Does God permit unnecessary suffering?

That descriptive word is yours… not God’s (unnecessary).It is not mine in particular because it has been used by countless people in their attempts
to understand the reason(s) for the apparently unnecessary suffering in the world.

Perhaps it is necessary to prove to people that their decision to live without God or without listening to God or not inviting God in… (talking about the decision of Adam and Eve–it was our first parents’ fault that they chose to know GOOD AND EVIL! Then they would become gods, according to the serpent…) Actions have consequences… We are not God and often we show him by our actions that we don’t want anything to do with him…

Do mean God permits suffering so that people understand that it is the fault of people who reject Him?

 

[tonyrey]

And of course, " are slogan-principles forever associated with the bloodbath that the French Revolution became. And (as I know you know, not trying to be preachy) they mean nothing at all, without faith that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

The principles may be associated with the slogans associated with the French Revolutionaries who** inherited the Christian tradition** that we are all brothers and sisters - which doesn’t make sense if we are related solely by an accident of birth. It was Jesus who revealed that God is a loving Father who cares for all His creatures.

 

[Faithdancer]

It was Jesus who revealed that God is a loving Father who cares for all His creatures.

We can certainly agree on that!

 

[tonyrey]

As I said, if god deceives us by hiding in the shadows to somehow protect our free-will, he could have miraculously caused a few heart attacks and stopped the chain of command, but didn’t.

God doesn’t “deceive us by hiding in the shadows to somehow protect our free-will”. It would defeat the purpose of creating a predictable universe if God suspended the laws of nature whenever a person or animal is going to be harmed or killed.

Ironically Luther addresses the hiddenness of God in nearly every aspect of his theology:

Indeed, Bernhard Lohse believes the Deus absconditus is Luther’s greatest contribution to the Christian theology of God. His later writings on the **Deus absconditus **most frequently address the God who hides himself from his saints in contradiction to his given revelation of himself, in order to cause faith to become true faith. His strong experiential theology brings to light a perplexing problem on the nature of God and his relation to his saints and offers timeless wisdom for those who have found themselves confronted by the hidden God.

laurawelker.com/luthers%20hidden%20god.pdf

And I’m not going to engage in trying to redefine free-will to justify the Holocaust. When people try to justify the Holocaust, something is obscenely wrong.

Nothing justifies the Holocaust but without free will it wouldn’t have occurred. It wasn’t caused by God but by persons made in His image and likeness with the power to defy His Will…