God or Allah?

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Sister_Amy said:
How do you know it was Jesus who inspired it and not the Holy Spirit? Jesus didn’t even exist then though so it’s not possible he could have inspired anyone. Like Moses.
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Your familiar with the trinity arent you?
Did you READ my response, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were around as long as God has been around.
Allow me to clarify since apparently I’m teaching kindergarten today.
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Since im teaching kindergarten myself, and have to explain the trinity for the billionth time…
Some writings in the Bible (like most of them, all of the OT) are much older than 2000 years.
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No writings in the New Testament are even 2000 years old, they are more recent than that.
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Yes, some of the writings in the bible are much older than 2000 years, doesnt mean the BIBLE is more than 2000 years though does it?
The Bible as a collective entity is even more recent.
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Oh, so you were wrong with your statement then?😉
 
TaliaHudspeth said:
Believe it or not, I understand that the BC/AD switch happened after Jesus’ actual life - its not like a big memo circulated around Israel at the time…

The point is that the burden of proof (to prove to me that Jesus lived more recently than 2000 years ago) is on you. There is an established line of scholarship that supports my view. If I’m wrong, show me the truth. When did Jesus live? What have we been doing for the past 2000 years if he lived more recently than that?
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Okay, let me share something with you… knowledge, free of charge. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus was born in the year 4BCE. According to the Gospel of Luke, Jesus was born in the year 6 CE.That’s 10 years disparity. So at least one of them is wrong. And we haven’t even gotten into real corruption mud yet. This is just the birth of Jesus and the Bible can’t even tell you what year it was!? And it was a pretty big even to you. Maybe you thought it was in the year 0 or something. Sorry to inform you that that was not the case. But anyway.

Sometime between 4BCE and 6CE (probably the former) Jesus was born. That would be 2012 or 2002 years ago that Jesus was born. SO can you really have 2000 years of scholarship if Jesus was still a child 2000 years ago?

So if we accept this date for the birth of Jesus (and I see no reason not to) then we can assume he lived for about 30 years or so, which would be about 1970-1980 years ago, right? And then his disciples and eventually sometime later you start getting writings like the Gospel of Mark which scholars think was probably written in the early 70’s CE… your 2000 years kind of goes out the window. Let’s be precise now. 🙂

There was religion before Jesus and after Jesus. What you’ve been taught to call the “Old Testament” was in existence before Jesus, for example. All of it. Already compiled. Today you might hear it called the “Jewish Bible.”
 
Psalter said:
I know that Allah is simply the Arabic word for God and that it is used by Arabic-speaking Christians. But why is it that Muslims use the word “Allah” for God even when they are speaking English?
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Same reason why some Christians use the Name Jesus when speaking in another language: It’s the Holy Name. For Muslims Allah is the name of God, the name revealed in the Koran, just as for Christians the Name Jesus is the Name of the Lord. Some Christians don’t like to use the equivalent Name of Jesus in other languages - such as the Hebrew Yeshu (I think that’s it? My apologies if I got it wrong. Blessed be the Name of God) - because they believe it’s disrespectful and are unfamiliar with it. Therefore they use the name English equivalent of the Name Jesus, which is Jesus. I think this is the same reason why the Muslims use Allah: Out of respect, familiarity, and reverence.
 
Sister Amy, you have truly defined for me the essence of splitting hairs. I am sorry that you took me so literally to mean exactly 2000 years of scholarship, not one day more, not one day less. There is a concept in mathmatics known as rounding. It tends to facilitate discussions like these - though obviously not in this case. Since Luke (or Matthew) never stated “Hi, Luke here. Jesus was born Dec. 25th, AD 6” I suppose I will never be able to answer the question of when Jesus was born to your satisfaction. We have clues in the writings of the Gospels, and they all point to it being about 2000 years ago. And since that time, Christians have held the beliefs we hold today. That was my point.

I have stated my views, and until you come up with a post that legitimately refutes (or comes anywhere close to refuting) them, I will now be silent. If you can make a legitimate rebuttal, I will happily respond.

Until then, I pray that you find the Truth - in Jesus Christ.
 
TaliaHudspeth said:
Sister Amy, you have truly defined for me the essence of splitting hairs. I am sorry that you took me so literally to mean exactly 2000 years of scholarship, not one day more, not one day less. There is a concept in mathmatics known as rounding. It tends to facilitate discussions like these - though obviously not in this case. Since Luke (or Matthew) never stated “Hi, Luke here. Jesus was born Dec. 25th, AD 6” I suppose I will never be able to answer the question of when Jesus was born to your satisfaction. We have clues in the writings of the Gospels, and they all point to it being about 2000 years ago. And since that time, Christians have held the beliefs we hold today. That was my point.

I have stated my views, and until you come up with a post that legitimately refutes (or comes anywhere close to refuting) them, I will now be silent. If you can make a legitimate rebuttal, I will happily respond.

Until then, I pray that you find the Truth - in Jesus Christ.
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So you believe Jesus was actually born on December 25th?

Did you not understand when I told you that two Gospels give you 10 years difference about the birth of Jesus? And you wonder how I can think they are corrupted?
 
TaliaHudspeth said:
Sister Amy, you have truly defined for me the essence of splitting hairs. I am sorry that you took me so literally to mean exactly 2000 years of scholarship, not one day more, not one day less. There is a concept in mathmatics known as rounding. It tends to facilitate discussions like these - though obviously not in this case. Since Luke (or Matthew) never stated “Hi, Luke here. Jesus was born Dec. 25th, AD 6” I suppose I will never be able to answer the question of when Jesus was born to your satisfaction. We have clues in the writings of the Gospels, and they all point to it being about 2000 years ago. And since that time, Christians have held the beliefs we hold today. That was my point.

I have stated my views, and until you come up with a post that legitimately refutes (or comes anywhere close to refuting) them, I will now be silent. If you can make a legitimate rebuttal, I will happily respond.

Until then, I pray that you find the Truth - in Jesus Christ.
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Great post!

Vickie
 
Sister_Amy said:
So you believe Jesus was actually born on December 25th?

Did you not understand when I told you that two Gospels give you 10 years difference about the birth of Jesus? And you wonder how I can think they are corrupted?
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From the footnotes of the Bible, Gospel according to Saint Luke, chapter 2 verses 1 and 2:

1 [1-2] Although universal registrations of Roman citizens are attested in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14 and enrollments in individual provinces of those who are not Roman citizens are also attested, such a universal census of the Roman world under Caesar Augustus is unknown outside the New Testament. Moreover, there are notorious historical problems connected with Luke’s dating the census when Quirinius was governor of Syria, and the various attempts to resolve the difficulties have proved unsuccessful. P. Sulpicius Quirinius became legate of the province of Syria in A.D. 6-7 when Judea was annexed to the province of Syria. At that time, a provincial census of Judea was taken up. If Quirinius had been legate of Syria previously, it would have to have been before 10 B.C. because the various legates of Syria from 10 B.C. to 4 B.C. (the death of Herod) are known, and such a dating for an earlier census under Quirinius would create additional problems for dating the beginning of Jesus’ ministry (⇒ Luke 3:1, ⇒ 23). A previous legateship after 4 B.C. (and before A.D. 6) would not fit with the dating of Jesus’ birth in the days of Herod (⇒ Luke 1:5; ⇒ Matthew 2:1). Luke may simply be combining Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem with his vague recollection of a census under Quirinius (see also ⇒ Acts 5:37) to underline the significance of this birth for the whole Roman world: through this child born in Bethlehem peace and salvation come to the empire.

2 [1] Caesar Augustus: the reign of the Roman emperor Caesar Augustus is usually dated from 27 B.C. to his death in A.D. 14. According to Greek inscriptions, Augustus was regarded in the Roman Empire as “savior” and “god,” and he was credited with establishing a time of peace, the pax Augusta, throughout the Roman world during his long reign. It is not by chance that Luke relates the birth of Jesus to the time of Caesar Augustus: the real savior (⇒ Luke 2:11) and peace-bearer (⇒ Luke 2:14; see also ⇒ Luke 19:38) is the child born in Bethlehem. The great emperor is simply God’s agent (like the Persian king Cyrus in ⇒ Isaiah 44:28-⇒ 45:1) who provides the occasion for God’s purposes to be accomplished. The whole world: that is, the whole Roman world: Rome, Italy, and the Roman provinces.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Okay, let me share something with you… knowledge, free of charge. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus was born in the year 4BCE. According to the Gospel of Luke, Jesus was born in the year 6 CE.That’s 10 years disparity. So at least one of them is wrong. And we haven’t even gotten into real corruption mud yet. This is just the birth of Jesus and the Bible can’t even tell you what year it was!? And it was a pretty big even to you. Maybe you thought it was in the year 0 or something. Sorry to inform you that that was not the case. But anyway.

Sometime between 4BCE and 6CE (probably the former) Jesus was born. That would be 2012 or 2002 years ago that Jesus was born. SO can you really have 2000 years of scholarship if Jesus was still a child 2000 years ago?

So if we accept this date for the birth of Jesus (and I see no reason not to) then we can assume he lived for about 30 years or so, which would be about 1970-1980 years ago, right? And then his disciples and eventually sometime later you start getting writings like the Gospel of Mark which scholars think was probably written in the early 70’s CE… your 2000 years kind of goes out the window. Let’s be precise now. 🙂

There was religion before Jesus and after Jesus. What you’ve been taught to call the “Old Testament” was in existence before Jesus, for example. All of it. Already compiled. Today you might hear it called the “Jewish Bible.”
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Could you please answer the following questions:

1) When was Jesus born according to the Koran?

2) Where was Jesus born according to the Koran?

3) When was the supposed Injeel given to Jesus? How old was Jesus when He started His prophetic ministry according to the Koran?

4) What sort of political/cultural environment was Jesus born into according to the Koran?

5) Who were Jesus’ disciples according to the Koran?

6) Why did the Jews of Jesus’ time reject Jesus according to the Koran?

7) When, how, by whom, and where was the so-called true Injeel suposedly corrupted according to the Koran?

8) Why was Jesus and Jesus alone named the Messiah according to the Koran?

9) How, when, and why did God supposedly save Jesus from crucifixion according to the Koran?

10) What happened to Jesus’ disciples after Jesus’ alleged assumption according to the Koran??

You have got a week to answer these questions and make us happy here 🙂
 
Sister_Amy said:
Did you not understand when I told you that two Gospels give you 10 years difference about the birth of Jesus? And you wonder how I can think they are corrupted?
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I still fail to understand how the supposed problem with the precise date of Jesus’ birth can prove the alleged corruption of the New Testament.

Before this, I fail to understand how the supposed corruption of the New Testament can prove that a book similar to the Koran had been given to Jesus and that all the Islamic allegations about Jesus are trustworthy. 🤷
 
Sister_Amy said:
On the question of Muslims limiting God–that simple isn’t happening here.

When God says He is “One,” let’s just accept that first of all.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

2 Samuel 7:22 How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears. (See also 1 Chronicles 17:20)

Mark 12:28-29 Jesus is asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, "is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Qur’an 2:163 And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

So is anyone “limiting” God by saying He is One? Isn’t that what He has taught us in the first place, from the very beginning?

For sure you can’t mean that Muslims are limiting God when Muslims consider Him to be Eternal, and never begotten. What is the limit?

The limit is calling him human, flawed, begotten, and mortal. The limit is by saying that the Creator exists inside the creation, that a human being could be God, when a human being has no more power than you or I. So who is stripping the Almighty of His power? Limiting Him? Except for those who say He is human? 🤷
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First things first:

Yes, almost all Bibles has translated Deut 6:4 as “…the Lord is one”. But the word אחד has several other possible meanings, one of which is “unity”.
So Deut 6:4 might well be translated as “…:The Lord our God, the Lord is a unity”.

But even if the correct meaning IS “one”, it does not make Jesus a liar (as He would be if He was not who He claimed to be). A human being is ONE being, but we are also body and soul.
In the same way, God is ONE being, (and there is only ONE God. Ashahadu an la ilaha illallah), consisting of three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

None of the quotes you bring forth disprove the trinitarian doctrine. Christians do not claim that Jesus is LIKE God - we claim that He IS God. But He is NOT God the Father - he is God the Son. The second Person of the Trinity (and Mary is not, as the koran wrongly claims, part of the Trinity).

No Christian is calling God flawed! I’d like you to back up that statement.
We are also not saying that God the Father is begotten, nor that God the Father is mortal. God the Son was begotten eternally of the Father, existing from eternity.
Finally, we are not claiming that a human is God; we are claiming that God became a human. And there is a very, VERY important difference between those two claims.

The fact remains that islam is stripping the Almighty of his power, and saying that there is something which is not a logical impossibility, but which the Almighty cannot do, and you end up with an oxymoron; a contradiction in terms.
Either God is omnipotent, in which case He CAN become a man if He so desires, or He is not, in which case He is not worth putting faith in. There is no middle ground.

ashahadu anna yasuadar ibn-Allah.

Mark
 
Sister_Amy said:
Rather, since you rejected him (as a prophet), tis you who cannot see.
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Oh…so if one rejects the incoherent, self-contradictory “revalations” of some Arabian merchant, who couldn’t even get his opponents’ views right to criticize them, one cannot see?
LOL
 
I once heard that Allah and God are not the same for a number of reasons. I’m not a scholarly expert but a couple of the reasons were because:
  1. Allah didn’t have a Son that lived and walked among us.
  2. Allah is portrayed as an angry and vengeful God in the Koran but God in our Bible and other documents is kind and benevolent… at least after the flood.
I dunno… just throwing that out there.
 
claudiogut said:
I once heard that Allah and God are not the same for a number of reasons. I’m not a scholarly expert but a couple of the reasons were because:
  1. Allah didn’t have a Son that lived and walked among us.
  2. Allah is portrayed as an angry and vengeful God in the Koran but God in our Bible and other documents is kind and benevolent… at least after the flood.
I dunno… just throwing that out there.
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You’re not a scholarly expert but…?

(1) “God” didn’t have a son.

(2) Try reading the Old Testament and see what “God” tells the Israelites to do, and whether you see both wrath and benevolence? Because you’ll see both. And in fact, in Islam, “God” is known as The Kind, and The Gentle, but never known as the angry, or the vengeful. Muslims don’t use these as names for God, among all the names God has in the Qur’an. Why?

And since you know you’re not a scholarly expert, you might not be able to answer the question, but think about it–when is God ever called angry or vengeful in the Qur’an? While instead He is called Merciful, Forgiving, Kind, Gentle, Loving, etc.

Here is one list of 99 names. See what you think.
 
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