God or Allah?

[Sister_Amy]

Generally… we have the 2000 years of the Church’s history, and more specifically the writings of the Early Church Fathers (who quoted the Bible like MAD) to show us that the Bible has contained the same information since the death of Jesus.

I am just curious how/why it is thought that this broke down, when we have writings going back to people who learned at the feet of the apostles (since the apostles themselves authored many portions of the New Testament) showing that our belief has remained consistent.

Where, in light of the evidence of the Early Church Fathers, who were teaching the same things as the apostles and Jesus did in the New Testament, did it break down, and people “started attributing things to Jesus”?

This is the last I’ll say on the “limiting God” thing, but it is a measure of God’s infinite capabilities that He would insert Himself into humanity - it shows that he has the ability, **even as **Creator to become a part of creation. The more important feature is that it shows God’s infinite love for us - that He would become like us in order to bring us back to Him.

I’m sorry that I’ve taken this thread off-topic - my original postions devolved into different issues than I anticipated

The Bible is much older than 2000 years. And I really don’t think people should still believe that the actual disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament–or that the New Testament in its totality is even significant as a religious text for Christians.

But on limiting God–I have no problem to say that His Majesty is above what some of mankind have ascribed to Him. In the Qur’an, as in the Bible (I quoted above) we can read that there is nothing like God. Trying to imagine a human walking on earth to be divine is absolutely contradictory to that statement.

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

The Bible is much older than 2000 years. And I really don’t think people should still believe that the actual disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament–or that the New Testament in its totality is even significant as a religious text for Christians.

Not sure where to start… but “The Bible” as a whole entity didn’t exist until the Church put it together… so I was about right in saying that its 2000 years old. Does it contain writings older than that? Absolutely. But the group of texts that you and I have been talking about wasn’t defined until that time. Additionally, the Church was founded by Jesus (as illustrated in the Bible), and has continued the traditions found in Holy Scriptures since its inception - that was my point.

How is the New Testament not a significant religious text for Christians? Do you know ANYTHING about Christianity at all? Who wrote it, then? And what is its purpose?

I’ve heard a lot of things, but claiming the NT - the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus… the text that contains the life and teachings of Jesus- is not a significant text for Christians kinda blows me away.

 

[dolphinlove]

The Bible is much older than 2000 years. And I really don’t think people should still believe that the actual disciples of Jesus wrote the New Testament–or that the New Testament in its totality is even significant as a religious text for Christians.

But on limiting God–I have no problem to say that His Majesty is above what some of mankind have ascribed to Him. In the Qur’an, as in the Bible (I quoted above) we can read that there is nothing like God. Trying to imagine a human walking on earth to be divine is absolutely contradictory to that statement.

IF the bible was ‘much’ older than 2000 years old, why then did Jesus walk the earth only roughly 2000 years ago? Or is this your admission the prophecy in the OT about Jesus is true?

 

[dolphinlove]

Makes sense only if you believe in the Quran.

That’s your opinion!

If something in the Quran agrees with the Bible, it’s okay, if it disagrees with the Bible, it’s corrupted and fabricated.

Where’s the proof of the corrupted verses??

Your opinion based on “Muhammad said so”!

Vickie

Vickie… :hug1:
As always, good response…

 

[Sister_Amy]

Makes sense only if you believe in the Quran.

I do.

That’s your opinion!

Well you can go ask the Holy Spirit and see how far that gets you.

If something in the Quran agrees with the Bible, it’s okay, if it disagrees with the Bible, it’s corrupted and fabricated.

Too many “its” in that sentence.

Where’s the proof of the corrupted verses??

Just look at yourself. Or maybe you can’t even see it… so corrupted is your vision.

Your opinion based on “Muhammad said so”!

Muhammad said you can buy revelation at Barnes & Noble?

 

[Sister_Amy]

IF the bible was ‘much’ older than 2000 years old, why then did Jesus walk the earth only roughly 2000 years ago? Or is this your admission the prophecy in the OT about Jesus is true?

Did Jesus write Genesis?

Maybe somebody lied to me, but I thought that the books of the Bible go back to the time of Moses?

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

Did Jesus write Genesis?

Maybe somebody lied to me, but I thought that the books of the Bible go back to the time of Moses?

Jesus didn’t author any books of the Bible in the sense you are familiar with. We believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, not that Jesus sat down with a pen and pencil and knocked it out. And yes… the books of the Bible do go back to Moses. I don’t think you aren’t reading these responses.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Not sure where to start… but “The Bible” as a whole entity didn’t exist until the Church put it together… so I was about right in saying that its 2000 years old. Does it contain writings older than that? Absolutely. But the group of texts that you and I have been talking about wasn’t defined until that time. Additionally, the Church was founded by Jesus (as illustrated in the Bible), and has continued the traditions found in Holy Scriptures since its inception - that was my point.

Uh… no, you’re wrong either way. If you’re talking about the Bible being put together, then it’s not even 2000 years old. Because the Church didn’t put it together 2000 years ago (i.e., the year 8 CE… hahaha). But some centuries after that, right?

But the oldest books are much older than that. So what is your proof that they were corrupted? You don’t have any, that’s my point. You don’t even know how old they are or who wrote them. That’s another point. Just think about it.

How is the New Testament not a significant religious text for Christians? Do you know ANYTHING about Christianity at all? Who wrote it, then? And what is its purpose?

That’s my opinion, actually. And as to the question of “Who wrote it?” I think that’s a question you should seriously consider. And when you find the answer unsatisfying, go read the Qur’an.

I’ve heard a lot of things, but claiming the NT - the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus… the text that contains the life and teachings of Jesus- is not a significant text for Christians kinda blows me away.

The New Testament and the Gospel are NOT the same thing. Didn’t you know that? Or really didn’t you… seriously?

 

[dolphinlove]

Did Jesus write Genesis?

Maybe somebody lied to me, but I thought that the books of the Bible go back to the time of Moses?

Remember, Jesus is God, he inspired it, as he says, before Abraham, i was
What about the NT? Are you saying this is more than 2000 years old?
Your words
‘The Bible is much older than 2000 years.’
The church put the bible together… the church didnt exist until Jesus, so are you still going to say the bible is ‘much’ more than 2000 years old?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jesus didn’t author any books of the Bible in the sense you are familiar with. We believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, not that Jesus sat down with a pen and pencil and knocked it out. And yes… the books of the Bible do go back to Moses. I don’t think you aren’t reading these responses.

Of course I’m reading these responses. And closely enough to realize that you just used a double negative. Tsk tsk.

 

[dolphinlove]

Of course I’m reading these responses. And closely enough to realize that you just used a double negative. Tsk tsk.

point out the ‘double negative’ please

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

Excuse my grammatical error - I had edited that sentence to be more charitable than I had initially written it. You are right - it should have said “I don’t think you are reading these…”

However, pointing out typos doesn’t convince me to run out and convert to Islam… as my typing errors don’t blind me to your illogic.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Remember, Jesus is God, he inspired it, as he says, before Abraham, i was
What about the NT? Are you saying this is more than 2000 years old?
Your words
‘The Bible is much older than 2000 years.’
The church put the bible together… the church didnt exist until Jesus, so are you still going to say the bible is ‘much’ more than 2000 years old?

How do you know it was Jesus who inspired it and not the Holy Spirit? Jesus didn’t even exist then though so it’s not possible he could have inspired anyone. Like Moses.

Allow me to clarify since apparently I’m teaching kindergarten today.

Some writings in the Bible (like most of them, all of the OT) are much older than 2000 years.

No writings in the New Testament are even 2000 years old, they are more recent than that.

The Bible as a collective entity is even more recent.

 

[Sister_Amy]

point out the ‘double negative’ please

I don’t think you aren’t reading these responses.

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

No writings in the New Testament are even 2000 years old, they are more recent than that.

The Bible as a collective entity is even more recent.

How do you know this when 2000 years of Christian scholarship point otherwise? Please let us know your source.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Excuse my grammatical error - I had edited that sentence to be more charitable than I had initially written it. You are right - it should have said “I don’t think you are reading these…”

However, pointing out typos doesn’t convince me to run out and convert to Islam… as my typing errors don’t blind me to your illogic.

Is illogic really a word? Wow it is.

If pointing out your typos convinced you to convert to Islam you would have a very weak constitution indeed.

 

[Sister_Amy]

How do you know this when 2000 years of Christian scholarship point otherwise? Please let us know your source.

I wasn’t being clever.

Do you even know when Jesus lived?

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

… do I know when Jesus lived?

I would say… Yes. We actually switched from BC to AD when he was born. It was a pretty major event.

And I NEVER thought you were being clever.

 

[Sister_Amy]

… do I know when Jesus lived?

I would say… Yes. We actually switched from BC to AD when he was born. It was a pretty major event.

Hehe. You’re close. Sort of. Maybe one of your friends can help you out with this one.

I just have this image of the CHristian version of the birth of Jesus and then everyone saying “Let’s stop counting by BC now and start saying AD”

 

[TaliaHudspeth]

Believe it or not, I understand that the BC/AD switch happened after Jesus’ actual life - its not like a big memo circulated around Israel at the time…

The point is that the burden of proof (to prove to me that Jesus lived more recently than 2000 years ago) is on you. There is an established line of scholarship that supports my view. If I’m wrong, show me the truth. When did Jesus live? What have we been doing for the past 2000 years if he lived more recently than that?