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thinkandmull
Guest
You are assuming that God sits on his throne, knows what will happen in the world, waits a minute and then creates anyway. Its not like that. Time and eternity interact with each other in a non-linear fashion.
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thinkandmull
Guest
What you’ve written here is what is self-contradictory. If God knows what will happen in the future, he can’t decide to not create it because he knows it because it is created
D
djames99
Guest
It only seems futile, but take heart, God is actually challenging us to make a difference.
These facts are meant to disturb and make us take notice, and yeah, they are “in your face”. They exist because of God’s love for us. I was mortified by these writings. I felt like I was simply being processed. Some chickens were destined to pies, and some were to be released to free range. I came to a point where nothing was of value and I considered myself a reprobate. Trying to find a glimmer of hope through the writings of the Fathers, I would always read into it more doom and gloom.
But then Aquinas said something that caught my eye. I have heard often the encouraging words the Catholic community pass on to each other for encouragement. “that is a sure sign of predestination”. Aquinas repeats this in his paper De Veritas(dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer6.htmI). Note he does not use the word reprobation is certain, but “salvation” is certain.
“God prepares so many other helps for one who is predestined that he either does not fall at all or, if he does fall, he rises again. The helps that God gives a man to enable him to gain salvation are exhortations, the support of prayer, the gift of grace, and all similar things. Consequently, if we were to consider salvation only in relation to its proximate cause, free choice, salvation would not be certain but contingent; however, in relation to the first cause, namely, predestination, salvation is certain”.
So that’s all I do now, and I live in certainty. I live like I am predestined, or perhaps worthy of predestination. I make friends among the predestined so that when they enter that kingdom, they will have me on their minds. I try hard to remain in a state of grace, I am in close friendship with the Holy Mother. I pray every day and pray the the Rosary. I attend mass and am active in my community, where I enjoy doing charitable works. I use reason also. The simplest things come to make sense. The ten commandments are not directed, they apply to everyone, but what sense would it avail a reprobate to obey if there were a sinister intent? The reprobate trying to lead a Holy life would simply be role acting. God would not be all loving if that were true. So you see, even the simplest things lead one to belief that all is not lost. These are messages that show these are not affirmations of a futile existence, but calls to change and good news.
So if I am reprobate, then I am determined to be a virtuous one, and the celestial hall will have to include me in their discussion of famous elects.
Perhaps we are challenged to prove all the false statements untrue, who knows.
At least someone up there would give me a good reference I’m sure.
These facts are meant to disturb and make us take notice, and yeah, they are “in your face”. They exist because of God’s love for us. I was mortified by these writings. I felt like I was simply being processed. Some chickens were destined to pies, and some were to be released to free range. I came to a point where nothing was of value and I considered myself a reprobate. Trying to find a glimmer of hope through the writings of the Fathers, I would always read into it more doom and gloom.
But then Aquinas said something that caught my eye. I have heard often the encouraging words the Catholic community pass on to each other for encouragement. “that is a sure sign of predestination”. Aquinas repeats this in his paper De Veritas(dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer6.htmI). Note he does not use the word reprobation is certain, but “salvation” is certain.
“God prepares so many other helps for one who is predestined that he either does not fall at all or, if he does fall, he rises again. The helps that God gives a man to enable him to gain salvation are exhortations, the support of prayer, the gift of grace, and all similar things. Consequently, if we were to consider salvation only in relation to its proximate cause, free choice, salvation would not be certain but contingent; however, in relation to the first cause, namely, predestination, salvation is certain”.
So that’s all I do now, and I live in certainty. I live like I am predestined, or perhaps worthy of predestination. I make friends among the predestined so that when they enter that kingdom, they will have me on their minds. I try hard to remain in a state of grace, I am in close friendship with the Holy Mother. I pray every day and pray the the Rosary. I attend mass and am active in my community, where I enjoy doing charitable works. I use reason also. The simplest things come to make sense. The ten commandments are not directed, they apply to everyone, but what sense would it avail a reprobate to obey if there were a sinister intent? The reprobate trying to lead a Holy life would simply be role acting. God would not be all loving if that were true. So you see, even the simplest things lead one to belief that all is not lost. These are messages that show these are not affirmations of a futile existence, but calls to change and good news.
So if I am reprobate, then I am determined to be a virtuous one, and the celestial hall will have to include me in their discussion of famous elects.
Perhaps we are challenged to prove all the false statements untrue, who knows.At least someone up there would give me a good reference I’m sure.
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Richca
Guest
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Vico
Guest
Efficacious grace does not necessitate the will or destroy human freedom.
“Destruction is thy own, O Israel: thy help is only in Me” (Osee 13:9)
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oldcelt
Guest
Omniscience involves all knowledge of all time. If I have yet to be born and God, from all eternity, knows I will be lost, his omnipotence would certainly allow him to stop the transaction.
John
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oldcelt
Guest
So God has no interaction with the present world? That would involve dealing with linear time. There’s also that omniscience thing…infallible knowledge of all events in all times. If the Christian God is stuck in eternity, he cannot possibly have any impact on current events…so prayer, etc. would serve no purpose.
John
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oldcelt
Guest
Known through all eternity. So far as determination, the Catholic Encyclopedia states in no uncertain terms that God preordains all future events. Even they admit that the Christian God’s “eternal now” does not clear a deity of responsibility…they simply conclude that it is a mystery.
John
A
Aloysium
Guest
He “preordains” events in which we are given a choice.
They are not in the future for God because He encompasses all time.
We exist in time because we are creating who we are to be in eternity.
The choice is whether or not to love God and each other.
Responsibility is something we bear. God is responsible to no one.
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Vico
Guest
Catholic Encyclopedia states:The Semipelagians, too, depreciated the gratuity and the strictly supernatural character of eternal happiness by ascribing at least the beginning of faith (initium fidei) and final perseverance (donum perseverantiœ) to the exertion of man’s natural powers, and not to the initiative of preventing grace. This is one class of heresies which, slighting God and His grace, makes all salvation depend on man alone. But no less grave are the errors into which a second group falls by making God alone responsible for everything, and abolishing the free co-operation of the will in obtaining eternal happiness.
Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
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thinkandmull
Guest
This is still a diversion. If God gave everyone efficacious grace, would you say everyone of the human family would infallibly (not necessarily) be saved? We may both be Catholics, but I am not sure you and I worship the same God
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thinkandmull
Guest
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thinkandmull
Guest
You are seeing it with human eyes. Some of us have had deep thoughts on this, and your argument’s don’t seem necessarily to follow
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thinkandmull
Guest
He preordains in a general sense, not specifically
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oldcelt
Guest
In my belief we are each personally responsible for our action…the creator does not enter the equation at all.
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oldcelt
Guest
Deep thoughts have apparently occurred in divergent directions on this issue. How about simple logic…If the outcome of a creation is infallibly known by the creator, how can that creator escape responsibility?
Many more than you have had deep thoughts on this matter, including myself.
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oldcelt
Guest
How do you arrive at that from the word ALL?
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Vico
Guest
That was also the Pelagian positon (New World Encylpedia): Pelagius insisted that man’s moral nature was basically good, that sin was a willful act against God, and that man was responsible to voluntarily choose those actions which would promote his spiritual development. Salvation was based on individual merit although the forgiveness of sins was an unmerited act of divine grace. Christ was seen as a moral exemplar to be emulated. His ideas came to be known as Pelagianism.
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Vico
Guest
Before you commented “Could but wont give everyone efficacious grace?”
God gives everyone sufficient grace. The Dogmas of faith on this are:
- God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments.
- There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens).
- The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
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lmelahn
Guest
I think we need to say something about time, here.
Aquinas does not subscribe either to the A theory or to the B theory. (There is a good article regarding these theories on plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/#TheBThe.)
Instead, he follows Aristotle, who describes time as “the measure of change according to the before and after” (Physics IV, 11, 219b1-2; see Aquinas’ commentary on the same text, , lc. 17In IV Phys.).
The idea is, time depends strictly on the changes that occur in the material beings that we encounter (including us). Time does not exist “on its own” independently of the world; rather, the universal and continuous experience that we have of time is perceived by our senses and abstracted by our intellects.
To be clear: the continual change in material reality is real. The change flows on, regardless of whether we perceive it or not. However, it only becomes “time” in the strict sense when there are human beings to measure it.
Super-human intelligences (angels, and especially God) do not have to deal with time, because their intellection does not depend on the material world, as ours does. (Angels are not, of course, omnipotent, but unlike us, their knowledge is strictly intuitive.)
Hence—and this part might be counter-intuitive at first—for Aquinas (and Aristotle, as well as Augustine), only the “present” is real. It has really arrived from the past, and it is really tending toward the future, but at present, neither past nor future exist.
Because we are immersed in the material world, we have the greatest difficulty in imagining what it would be like to be outside of time, like God.
When God looks at a temporal creature—say an animal—He does not experience it the same way we do. We see the animal, so to speak, as our fellow companion on the journey. It is moving along in time at the same speed we are (so to speak). We experience its present, and only the present, as it unfolds.
God, however, sees in one glance the entire span of the animal’s life. He decrees when it should come into existence (i.e., at its conception), and when it should go out of existence (i.e., at its death). For God, every moment of time is present.
That boggles the mind, but perhaps an analogy can help. If I am driving in traffic, I can only see the cars that are driving alongside me. That is like the way we experience time. However, the traffic helecopter can see my entire trajectory, in a way that is impossible for me, as I am immersed in the traffic. That is why the traffic helecopter is so useful for predicting where the traffic jams are.
Now, note that although the traffic helecopter sees my entire trajectory, the trajectory is still my choice. There is nothing preventing me from taking a different route.
Clearly, there is a difference here: the traffic helecopter did not cause my trajectory, whereas God certainly did cause my existence, and He even causes the actions that I take.
However, the contingency of a being (or an action), and the fact that (from our point of view) it is in the future does not prevent it from being the object of God’s knowledge of vision (any more than the contingency of my trajectory prevents the helecopter pilot from seeing that trajectory).
That is what Aquinas is arguing in the text you cite from I, q. 14., a. 13. (Notice how Aquinas uses Aristotle’s terminology on time: God’s “knowledge is measured by eternity.”) If you look at the reply to Objection 3, you will see an argument rather like mine
.Yes, God knows the future, and even causes the future, but the future does not cease to be contingent—i.e., the fact that God already knows it does not suddenly render it deterministic.
So no, I think that determinism and the B-Theory are quite foreign to Aquinas.
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