God, Science and Naturalism

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Creeft has it the wrong way around. Because there is no evidence for the soul then a belief in the soul is a matter of faith.

I’m always bemused by this constant mantra ‘You have faith as well! ’ Why is so important to people of faith that the rest of us have it? The opposite of faith in God is not faith in materialism. It is simply disbelief.
There is no such thing as affirmative cold. Cold is merely the absence of heat. There is no such thing as affirmative darkness. Darkness is merely the absence of light. There is no such thing as affirmative unbelief. Unbelief is a denial of facts and assertions.

Note also: This Peter Kreeft’s diagram explaining why angels make sense to exist. If angels did not exist, then there would be a gap between humanity and God. If angels did not exist, then there would be no spirit creatures. Humanity is the only order of being that combines both physical and spiritual dimensions.
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I don’t know if that diagram is convincing to someone who isn’t already convinced of its truth. More importantly it’s neither provable nor falsifiable.

Similarly my amended diagram is also neither provable nor falsifiable:

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I recall a mining accident in the States some years back. A few miners were missing. Prayers were said at the mine head. And then news came though that they were safe. And people were naturally exultant, their prayers had been answered and it was God’s will that they had survived.

But it was a tragic mistake and they had been found - but all dead.
As an aside, there was a psychic (Sylvia Brown) who upon hearing the first reports that all but one had made it out safely said she predicted that. As you say, later it was reported they all died (or that all but one died), and she didn’t really admit she was wrong.
 
As an aside, there was a psychic (Sylvia Brown) who upon hearing the first reports that all but one had made it out safely said she predicted that. As you say, later it was reported they all died (or that all but one died), and she didn’t really admit she was wrong.
Quite a few awful stories around her predictions, including that poor woman who was kept in a basement for years. Always claimed she’d worked with police as part of her credentials, didn’t like to mention the police never got anything useful from her.
 
I think the issue especially to an outsider is that prayer absolutely looks like asking for things;
That is true. But many things look different from outside. There definitely a tendency to use prayer as you describe, but the overarching thought needs to be something like “This is what I would like to happen, but ‘Thy will be done’”.
 
The Shroud was extant in the 6th century as proven by
…absolutely nothing. There is speculation galore, but no real evidence.
Fanti’s research falsifies
…again, nothing.
did a statistical analysis
I am sure you are aware of Mark Twain’s comment on statistics.

Short version: Stop it; it is not proven and it is quite a legitimate position for a Catholic to take that the Shroud may not actually be what it is purported to be.
 
There definitely a tendency to use prayer as you describe, but the overarching thought needs to be something like “This is what I would like to happen, but ‘Thy will be done’”.
But isn’t the theist simply taking the same hopes and desires that an atheist feels and directing them toward some imagined deity?

So when a theist prays “Thy will be done” it’s no different than the atheist coming to the acceptance that “what will be, will be”.
 
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But isn’t the theist simply
Not really. Especially not if you get hung up on your assumption of “imagined”. I know the difference, and feel the difference, but am having a hard time articulating the difference. I guess the closest I can come to right now is that the atheist understands that the universe doesn’t care about any one individual, whereas the theist knows that the Creator of the universe most assuredly does care about each and every individual (and that “caring” is not the same as “totally insulating from discomfort”).
 
Especially not if you get hung up on your assumption of “imagined”. I know the difference, and feel the difference, but am having a hard time articulating the difference. I guess the closest I can come to right now is that the atheist understands that the universe doesn’t care about any one individual, whereas the theist knows that the Creator of the universe most assuredly does care about each and every individual (and that “caring” is not the same as “totally insulating from discomfort”).
This reminds me of the old saying about atheists in foxholes, that there are none. But what the atheist is doing is simply giving expression to the same hopes and fears that the theist is, they’re doing the only thing that’s left for them to do, expressing their emotions in a plea that’s directed as much at themselves, or at no one at all, as it is at God.

It’s an act of desperation, not born out of reason, but out of despair. Now some people may choose to console themselves with the belief that there really is someone listening. Someone who isn’t cold and indifferent, but who genuinely cares about their suffering, and in whom they can trust that everything is going to be okay.

Such faith can be a very powerful and beneficial thing, but both the theist and the atheist end up at the same place…thy will be donewhat will be, will be. It’s just that the theist’s belief in God gives the inevitable a little more meaning compared to what is for the atheist merely acceptance. But the discerning atheist has no problem with this, because they understand where it comes from. They understand the human need for God, for someone who cares. But it’s the step to believing that this God is actually real that the atheist can’t make.

And they fault the theists for assuming that this lack of faith is somehow a shortcoming that the theist has overcome but the atheist hasn’t, due to pride, or arrogance, or some other personal failing. But please don’t assume that the atheist’s disbelief is due to some shortcoming in their character, for they’re sitting there in that proverbial foxhole doing the exact same thing that you’re doing…being scared as hell, and doing their best to hang onto some semblance of hope. You think that the theist and the atheist are very different, but they’re not…they’re human.

We all pray, we just do it differently, and in the end we all end up at the same place…thy will be done.

Well, that got a bit off track. Sorry.

Just me rambling.
 
It’s an act of desperation, not born out of reason, but out of despair.
No, not for everyone. And belief in God is a reasonable position, it is just that God cannot be proven any more than He can be disproven.
You think that the theist and the atheist are very different, but they’re not…they’re human.
What exactly did I say that led you to that erroneous conclusion?
But it’s the step to believing that this God is actually real that the atheist can’t make.
No, can’t isn’t the right word. People move from one side to the other of this question every day. My personal journey has been more of a round trip (so far).
 
What exactly did I say that led you to that erroneous conclusion?
When I ramble I assume…my bad. I’ll try to be a bit more general next time
No, can’t isn’t the right word. People move from one side to the other of this question every day. My personal journey has been more of a round trip (so far).
Ahhh…proper verbiage…it’s a weakness of mine. But hopefully you got the gist, otherwise we’re in trouble, because clarity can be difficult for me to come by.
 
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Please don’t turn this into another thread discussing the Shroud…there are plenty already in existence!
My apologies. I mentioned the Holy Shroud because the title of this thread is "God, Science, and Naturalism. Since the Shroud has been proven by science to be a miracle given to us by God, it seemed relevant to the thread. Here is a passage in that regard from Verdict on the Shroud, Stevenson & Habermas, 1981, pg 162:

"Prior to the seventeenth-century Enlightenment, few scholars rejected belief in miracles.
However, doubts about miracles became widespread as the new rationalism spread in Europe.
The Enlightenment intellectuals taught that the true authority for religion was reason, not scriptures or church tradition. Thus, nothing in Christian belief could conflict with what reason said was true.

"To the rationalist, the laws of nature were an insurmountable obstacle to miracles. Man’s reason judged that miraculous events which would violate these laws would not occur. The rationalists will concede that there are strange events which may sometimes surpass human comprehension, but these events would always have a natural explanation. In short, The Enlightenment rationalists viewed miracles as needless intrusions into reality.

"The enlightenment efforts to dismiss the miraculous culminated in David Hume’s essay,
Of Miracles.’ Hume defined a miracle as an event which violates the laws of nature through the volition of God or some other invisible agent. Hume’s major thesis was that the laws of nature are uniform and thus do not allow for miracles. These laws are inalterable because the experience of mankind backs these laws. Hume thought this observation proved that miraculous events could not occur. In short, the laws of nature as supported by man’s experience so not allow for miracles.
. . .
"For David Hume and other skeptic, miracles are virtually impossible because they violate the observed laws of nature. Even if God existed, He would not choose to reveal Himself in a way that offends man’s reason, meaning that He would not intervene in history with miraculous events.
. . .
“The Shroud of Turin may have an important bearing on the naturalism-supernaturalism debate. It has been stated by some that the research on the Shroud may initiate a very intense discussion of the evidence for God’s action in human history. This view asserts that the Shroud studies might mount a serious reassessment of the naturalism which has recently dominated Western thinking.”

As noted, this was written in 1981, before the Shroud’s carbon fourteen evidence was measured. The Shroud has a great deal more C-14 than would be expected of a cloth that is 2000 years old. The problem is that archeology has proven that the Shroud was available to iconographers and coin engravers in the sixth century, and the only way to explain this anomaly is to postulate that the Shroud has been subjected to a neutron flux which would have had the effect of creating more C-14 in its linen fibers.
 
and the only way to explain this anomaly is to postulate that the Shroud has been subjected to a neutron flux which would have had the effect of creating more C-14 in its linen fibers.
…of which there isn’t verified evidence. The amount of C14 is perfectly matched by its appearance in history…the Middle Ages.

You are free to start a new thread on its veracity and why you believe it’s real. That’s not what this thread is about. This is also my final response to discussions of shrouds. I’m just a skeptic, not a specialist in shroud mythology.
 
With all due respect, Patty, you are wrong. Archeologists have uncovered verified evidence that the Shroud was known in the sixth century. If the Shroud’s C-14 evidence had indicated 6th century, then that evidence might be construed as indicating a date. But 13th century is just too far away for that C-14 evidence to have the meaning of a date. It must mean something else.


BTW, I am nor the one that is starting a Shroud thread here. I have rightly mentioned the Shroud in its relation to the present topic. Others have attempted to start a Shroud thread by jumping in with claims that the Shroud is not authentic.

p.s. Here is a quote from THE SIGN by Thomas De Wesselow who is a 14th century art historian at Oxford and also NOT a Christian:

The carbon dating of the Shroud will probably go down in history as one of the greatest fiascos in the history of science. It would make an excellent case study for any sociologist interested in exploring the ways in which science is affected by professional biases, prejudices and ambitions, not to mention religious (and irreligious) beliefs.”
 
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Since the Shroud has been proven by science to be a miracle given to us by God,
Still false, no matter how many times you make the same assertion.
The problem is that archeology has proven that the Shroud was available to iconographers and coin engravers in the sixth century, and the only way to explain this anomaly is to postulate that the Shroud has been subjected to a neutron flux which would have had the effect of creating more C-14 in its linen fibers.
Why do you persist in this when it has been demonstrated over and over again that none of that is true. That is like bad comic book science, not actual science in the real world.
 
jumping in with claims that the Shroud is not authentic.
I don’t think anyone actually claimed that. The claim is that it is not proven authentic (and it isn’t, no matter how much you may wish otherwise). Not the same thing at all. And it is wild long debunked claims of this sort that cause issues for many who are open-minded and looking for answers about faith. So please just stop it and don’t send anyone else running for the woods when they come seeking God.
 
Archeologists have uncovered verified evidence that the Shroud was known in the sixth century. If the Shroud’s C-14 evidence had indicated 6th century, then that evidence might be construed as indicating a date. But 13th century is just too far away for that C-14 evidence to have the meaning of a date. It must mean something else.
And this is why the claims you make will be dismissed, you’re blatantly saying only evidence that supports the conclusions you started with will be accepted. That’s not a characteristic of honest inquiry and calls into question every claim you’ve made. I’d be more curious in how it can be shown the shroud we have today is the same one referenced in the 6th century. And the 6th century is still quite a long way from the original events.
The carbon dating of the Shroud will probably go down in history as one of the greatest fiascos in the history of science.
Who designed the testing protocol? Because originally the testing protocol called for several samples tested by several laboratories including control tests without any of the labs knowing which got real samples and which got control samples. That didn’t happen, was it scientists who changed it?
 
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The Sign of Jonah is usually thought to mean the Resurrection, but its description in the Gospel of Matthew is about Jesus’ death and burial:

"It is an evil and unfaithful generation that asks for a sign! The only sign it will be given is the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was in the belly of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights."

A “sign” can be defined as a miracle that is witnessed by some one. In this case, an entire generation is specified, and the sign will be associated with Jesus’ death and internment. The resurrection does not fit because it is not witnessed by a generation and is not about His burial.**

In modern times we have discovered a miracle that is witnessed by the whole world and fits the parameters of the Jesus’ description of the Sign of Jonah. It is the image of His corpse miraculously imprinted onto His burial linen, the Holy Shroud.

Mother Teresa said, in commenting on Mary and Alan Whanger’s book about the Shroud:

"Thank you very much …for sharing with me all of your discoveries of the Shroud of Turin. I am grateful to God and to you for the sacrifices you have made…to bring others to a deeper faith through the Shroud. I ask God to bless the work you are doing."

In 1988 newspapers around the world proclaimed that the Holy Shroud was a fake, so it is understandable that people have a difficult time believing that it is authentic. Many such as the Whangers have worked tirelessly to correct the lies about Jesus’ miracle, the Sign of Jonah. But a few seem bent on obstructing this work while refusing to become educated about the Shroud themselves. This is not understandable. It is a real travesty.

*http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files...Koszalinsko_Kolobrzeskie-r2015-t22-s35-54.pdf

**See pg. 19, Summary:
“The sign of Jonah will remain an enigma in Matthew’s Gospel.”
 
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