God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[emeraldisle]

What should Luke have written? “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly … and this time I really mean it?”

How could one sin without breaking any commandment or ordinance of the Lord? That’s what sin is. If either had ever sinned then how would they stand “righteous before God?” as the passage states?

You are the one making a fanciful speculation that Luke 1:6 doesn’t really mean what it says.

It is God who inspired Luke to write the Gospel of Luke, now God didn’t inspire Luke to tells us that Z & E did all these things throughout their entire life. God doesn’t tell us that Z & E were sinless, period. You are continuing to engage in fanciful speculation.

Noah was called righteous and blameless but was he sinless?

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[savedsinner]

I agree with emeraldisle.
In fact I would like to ask why God didn’t plainly tell us that Jesus was part of the Trinity.
Must not be true if it is not clearly taught in scripture.
Must be one of those things the church invented later on.

 

[emeraldisle]

So, emeraldisle, then you are waffling.

So you are clutching at straws, I’ve already explained to you that the “stillborn baby” has nothing to do with Mary. You have failed to connect this issue with Mary and the fact that God tells us in His written word in Rom 5:12 that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

In all honesty I expected to face “real” issues in this discussion and not petty chat about “stillborn babies”.

I’m still waiting for someone to present evidence to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word regarding the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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[JMJ_coder]

So you are clutching at straws, I’ve already explained to you that the “stillborn baby” has nothing to do with Mary. You have failed to connect this issue with Mary and the fact that God tells us in His written word in Rom 5:12 that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

And given your answers thus far, apparently the only thing that has anything remotely to do with Mary is your twisted and distorted interpretation of a single verse of Scripture.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I’m still waiting for someone to present evidence to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word regarding the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

Please show where it says explicitly “Mary is a sinner” - remember her name must be used in the verse; you cannot interpolate, since that has already been shown to be a no-go over and over and over and over again here.

 

[VociMike]

So you are clutching at straws, I’ve already explained to you that the “stillborn baby” has nothing to do with Mary. You have failed to connect this issue with Mary and the fact that God tells us in His written word in Rom 5:12 that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

And we are asking whether stillborn babies are also part of sinful humanity, and if so, how? Because surely you can see that it is not obvious that stillborn babies can sin.

In all honesty I expected to face “real” issues in this discussion and not petty chat about “stillborn babies”.

You know, down deep, that this is a fundamental issue regarding Rom 5:12. You just call it petty to try and avoid dealing with it. Because your theology can’t deal with it.

But if it is truly a petty question then why not answer it and be done with it? Demonstrate to us in your answer how it is petty. BUT ANSWER THE FLAMING QUESTION! Every time you pettifog around it you just reinforce the feeling that Rom 5:12 doesn’t say what you claim it says, which means Rom 5:12 doesn’t apply to Mary.

I’m still waiting for someone to present evidence to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word regarding the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

We require your answer in order to frame our answer. Give an answer and you’ll get an answer. Just tell us, if you simply can’t discuss the sins of stillborn babies, who does Rom 5:12 apply to? Who is exempt from Rom 5:12 and who is not exempt?

 

[emeraldisle]

I agree with emeraldisle.
In fact I would like to ask why God didn’t plainly tell us that Jesus was part of the Trinity.
Must not be true if it is not clearly taught in scripture.
Must be one of those things the church invented later on.

I know this is yet another diversion from the topic of this thread

Trinity’s not clear in the Scriptures???

Jesus said,

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

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[VociMike]

I know this is yet another diversion from the topic of this thread

Trinity’s not clear in the Scriptures???

Jesus said,

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

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That is certainly not a declaration of the Trinity. Any theologian would laugh at such a claim.

 

[emeraldisle]

And we are asking whether stillborn babies are also part of sinful humanity, and if so, how? Because surely you can see that it is not obvious that stillborn babies can sin.

So your theology is - stillborn baby + Mary = sinlessness ???

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[Tantum_ergo]

And where in Scripture does it say what we profess in the Creed?

That not only was Christ co-equal with the Father but also that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son?

That, you know, is not in Scripture. One could make a case that Jesus (repeatedly) identified Himself not only as Son of the Father, but as the Father as well --(words to Philip, the use by Jesus when the mob was seeking him, “I am”, the words “before Abraham was, I am”, etc.) but where does one find Scripture that identifies the Holy Spirit as also, and equally, God with the Father and the Son?

The Counselor sent in Christ’s name. . .yes, obviously somebody ‘high’. . .but then again, God’s messengers (beings SENT to humanity and sent in God’s name, too) were, Scripturally and historically, ANGELS. . .and angels are not God.) Where is the indication that the Counselor is not an angel like Gabriel but God Himself?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Emeraldisle, please answer the question.

Does a stillborn–or a newborn–sin?

Yes. . .or no.

It is such a simple and petty question. Why can’t you simply answer?

 

[VociMike]

So your theology is - stillborn baby + Mary = sinlessness ???

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Yes it is. Neither “have sinned” as per Rom 5:12. Now refute both cases if you can. C’mon, with all those condescending question marks this should be easy for you.

 

[emeraldisle]

That is certainly not a declaration of the Trinity. Any theologian would laugh at such a claim.

What sort of Trinity do you believe in???

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[Tantum_ergo]

Please, before the Trinity, answer the question about the stillborn baby.

 

[Gamera]

… and the fact that God tells us in His written word in Rom 5:12 that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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Mary’s name isn’t in my translation of Romans 5:12. What translation are you using where the name “Mary” appears in Romans 5:12?

Incidentally, my translation of Romans 5:12 says “all men sinned,” not “all have sinned.” So aren’t you “going beyond God’s written word” by assuming that women are included?

 

[larry_m]

I would like to know from my Catholic friends, what is the theological point of Mary being sinless? Thankyou for your responses from the CC’s official position, not an individual reason.

 

[Gamera]

I would like to know from my Catholic friends, what is the theological point of Mary being sinless? Thankyou for your responses from the CC’s official position, not an individual reason.

First and foremost, because it’s true, and the Church lacks the authority to erase or remove anything from God’s revelation to humanity.

Secondly, because beliefs about Mary are based upon beliefs about Christ. Christ had to be born as a human being without inheriting original sin from His mother.

Third, because sinlessness was needed in order for Mary to have perfect faith. “To become the mother of the Savior, Mary was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role … in fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace,” Catechism of the Catholic Church 490.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I would like to know from my Catholic friends, what is the theological point of Mary being sinless? Thankyou for your responses from the CC’s official position, not an individual reason.

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

From the Catholic Answers Library:
The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, “Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might.” If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

 

[VociMike]

I would like to know from my Catholic friends, what is the theological point of Mary being sinless? Thankyou for your responses from the CC’s official position, not an individual reason.

One reason offered by the Church (and an extremely reasonable one, IMHO) is that Mary had to have a completely free will (unencumbered by any sin or inclination to sin) in choosing to accept or reject her role as the Mother of God in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ.

Another that I offer is that if Jesus Christ is to be the perfect unification of divine and human, then just as the source of his divinity, his Father, is perfect, so also should the source of his humanity, his Mother.

But beyond this, the Church teaches what she teaches simply because it has been given to her to teach by God. No other reason is needed, really.

 

[JMJ_coder]

But beyond this, the Church teaches what she teaches simply because it has been given to her to teach by God. No other reason is needed, really.

When I was a child, when I asked my father why I had to do something (like clean my room ), he would respond “because I said so”. Now, if that works for my earthly father, how much more will it work for my Heavenly Father.

Christian: Why do I have to believe all these Marian doctrines?

God: Because I said so.