God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[JMJ_coder]

God tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless, so He is the exception. There is no contradiction but just plain Truth that God has revealed to us in His written word.

Mary is included in the all in Rom 5:12, so are you and so am I.

You agree that there is at least one exception. Then that means that ‘all’ is not absolute. That means that there may be more exceptions (no where does it say all exceptions must be explicit in Scripture). One exception we know of from the Teaching of the Apostles is Mary.

Jesus, transcending time, applied the merits of His redemptive sacrifice prior to their temporal and chronological happening to His Mother Mary. Mary was in need of salvation just like you and me, but God saved her before she was besmudged by sin.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Emeraldisle:

You accuse Catholics of speculation in saying that Mary could not be sinless because Romans says “all have sinned.”

How then are you yourself guiltless of speculation when you say, “stillborn and infants do not sin”. Where is the ‘exception’ clause in Scripture that supports you? We give Luke 2 to support our teaching --you give nothing. We actually have ‘grounds’ to support our belief that ‘all’ in this passage does not mean ‘all’ --you have no grounds and are frantically trying to dodge the bullet by constant repetition, as though if you keep saying “Mary sinned”, somehow you can ‘make it true.’ You can’t.

Also, about Psalm 14. . .did you care to get back about what “there is not a good man left, no, not one” means in that psalm? How about “all are depraved?”

 

[emeraldisle]

Emeraldisle, I’m still waiting for you to state whether Zechariah and Elizabeth sinned (see Luke 1:6).

Of course, I’m also still waiting for you to state whether a stillborn baby sinned, but perhaps you’ll at least extend the courtesy of answering one out of two questions, since I’ve answered your one question twice, so let’s try the quedstion about Elizabeth and Zechariah.

God tells me in His written word that Adam and Eve were created sinless and then they sinned against God. God tells me in His written word that sin has brought the curse of death upon all mankind and that sin has passed down to all of humanity. God tells me in His written word that Jesus was sinless, period.

So according to what God tells me in His written word Z & E and Mary were not sinless.

Does the Catholic Church teach that Z & E were sinless?

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[ConallCernach]

God tells me in His written word that Adam and Eve were created sinless and then they sinned against God. God tells me in His written word that sin has brought the curse of death upon all mankind and that sin has passed down to all of humanity. God tells me in His written word that Jesus was sinless, period.

So according to what God tells me in His written word Z & E and Mary were not sinless.

Does the Catholic Church teach that Z & E were sinless?

.

.

Luke 1:6

 

[emeraldisle]

You agree that there is at least one exception.

Yes that right and we know that Jesus is the exception because God tells us so in His written word. No fanciful speculation just plain Truth from Gods written word.

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[JMJ_coder]

Yes that right and we know that Jesus is the exception because God tells us so in His written word. No fanciful speculation just plain Truth from Gods written word.

I think the first thing you need to do is get over sola scriptura.

 

[emeraldisle]

Emeraldisle:
How then are you yourself guiltless of speculation when you say, “stillborn and infants do not sin”.

Please show me where I said this.

Also, about Psalm 14. . .did you care to get back about what “there is not a good man left, no, not one” means in that psalm? How about “all are depraved?”

There’s no contradiction in this Psalm of David, also your interpretation of the of this Psalm is totally flawed. BTW I’m not getting into a pointless discussion about this Psalm as it has absolutely nothing to do with Mary.

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[emeraldisle]

I think the first thing you need to do is get over sola scriptura.

I think you need to start acknowledging the fact that God is the supreme authority on Truth and that He clearly tells us the Truth in His written word.

.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I think you need to start acknowledging the fact that God is the supreme authority on Truth and that He clearly tells us the Truth in His written word.

He does speak to us in Scripture, but not just Scripture. He also has given us Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium as modes of Divine Revelation. We need all three and one cannot stand with the other two. Thus, to discard two in favor of one means you get none - the one retained falls flat on its face. Thus sola scripturists are even reading the Bible, as it cannot be supported with Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

 

[JMJ_coder]

BTW I’m not getting into a pointless discussion about this Psalm as it has absolutely nothing to do with Mary.

Yeah, only one twisted and distorted view of one verse in all of the Bible has anything remotely to do with Mary.

 

[RNRobert]

There’s no contradiction in this Psalm of David, also your interpretation of the of this Psalm is totally flawed. BTW I’m not getting into a pointless discussion about this Psalm as it has absolutely nothing to do with Mary.

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What makes you so sure his interpretation is flawed, and yours is correct?

 

[Gamera]

God tells me in His written word that Adam and Eve were created sinless and then they sinned against God. God tells me in His written word that sin has brought the curse of death upon all mankind and that sin has passed down to all of humanity. God tells me in His written word that Jesus was sinless, period.

So according to what God tells me in His written word Z & E and Mary were not sinless.

Does the Catholic Church teach that Z & E were sinless?

.

.

The Bible teaches that Zechariah and Elizabeth were sinless. “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly,” Luke 1:6.

They still had original sin, of course. But they lacked personal sin. Neither of them ever broke a commandment, according to Luke 1:6.

So much for “all have sinned” meaning every human being has committed personal sin.

 

[VociMike]

God tells me in His written word that Adam and Eve were created sinless and then they sinned against God. God tells me in His written word that sin has brought the curse of death upon all mankind and that sin has passed down to all of humanity. God tells me in His written word that Jesus was sinless, period.

So according to what God tells me in His written word Z & E and Mary were not sinless.

So where does God tell you that stillborn babies are sinless? You admitted as much, but without any justification. You are simply choosing at random who you think is included in “all” and who you think is excluded. Who in the world do you think is going to be convinced by such blatant theological invention?

 

[VociMike]

Please show me where I said this.

OK, now you’re claiming that stillborn babies do sin. Thank you for finally, finally answering that question, after we only asked you about 50 times. So, what sin does a stillborn baby commit? What sin can a stillborn baby commit? Because most of us here (and most of the world) would claim that there is no sin that a stillborn baby does commit or can commit. So please now defend your bizarre claim that stillborn babies commit sin.

 

[emeraldisle]

The Bible teaches that Zechariah and Elizabeth were sinless. “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly,” Luke 1:6.

They still had original sin, of course. But they lacked personal sin. Neither of them ever broke a commandment, according to Luke 1:6.

So much for “all have sinned” meaning every human being has committed personal sin.

Your response highlights how you go beyond what God tells us in His written word. God doesn’t tell us that Z & E did all these things throughout their entire life. God doesn’t tell us that Z & E were sinless, period. You are engaging in more fanciful speculation.

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[emeraldisle]

OK, now you’re claiming that stillborn babies do sin.

Nice try but you can’t put words in my mouth or should I say words in my posts . The fact is that a poster put a statement in quotations and attributed it to me. Now either I posted that statement or I didn’t. Tell the truth, did I make that statement or not?

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[Gamera]

Your response highlights how you go beyond what God tells us in His written word. God doesn’t tell us that Z & E did all these things throughout their entire life. God doesn’t tell us that Z & E were sinless, period. You are engaging in more fanciful speculation.

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What should Luke have written? “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly … and this time I really mean it?”

How could one sin without breaking any commandment or ordinance of the Lord? That’s what sin is. If either had ever sinned then how would they stand “righteous before God?” as the passage states?

You are the one making a fanciful speculation that Luke 1:6 doesn’t really mean what it says.

 

[Gamera]

Nice try but you can’t put words in my mouth or should I say words in my posts . The fact is that a poster put a statement in quotations and attributed it to me. Now either I posted that statement or I didn’t. Tell the truth, did I make that statement or not?

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Tell the truth, did a stillborn baby sin or not?

 

[VociMike]

Nice try but you can’t put words in my mouth or should I say words in my posts . The fact is that a poster put a statement in quotations and attributed it to me. Now either I posted that statement or I didn’t. Tell the truth, did I make that statement or not?

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Who knows what statements you’ve made. You’ve been so evasive that nobody has a clue. So here’s your chance to clear this up once and for all. Do stillborn babies sin? This must be at least the 50th time you have been asked that question. I consider it downright rude of you to have not answered after all those requests.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So, emeraldisle, then you are waffling.

Either a stillborn baby did not sin (and since you have consistently posted “was Mary stillborn?” when we talk about her being sinless, therefore one can make the deduction that you do agree that a stillborn baby is sinless, as apparently if Mary had been stillborn you would have agreed she was sinless, as a stillborn baby of course). . .

Or else a stillborn baby did sin.

You keep saying that you have answered this. . .

Well, when I said that you apparently believe stillborn babies did not sin, you insisted that this was not what you said.

Why did you say this?

Either you disagree. . .in which case you are saying stillborn babies do sin. . .

Or you agree but you don’t want to actually come out and say it.

So unless you care to tell us what you truly believe, I will continue to state that a reasonable and logical deduction from what you said in your own posts is that you at least will not say that newborn babies or stillborn babies do sin.

And the deduction from that is that you believe they do not sin.

You can’t have it both ways.

Either the written word of God has no exception save Jesus, and all. . .including stillborn babies. . .have sinned. Have sinned.

Or the written word of God allows for exceptions in the context of the texts themselves. . .

as is clearly shown in Psalm 14, which indeed is germane, as the use of ‘all’have sinned’ does not mean ‘all’ have sinned.

As for it not being germane --do you not realize that St. Paul was referring to this Psalm (and other Scripture)?

Do you think that Psalm 14 has absolutely no bearing on the concept of the sinfulness of men?