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ConallCernach
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I’m not sure if he understands the transitive property.
God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin
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yellowbird
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ConallCernach
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“All have sinned”
hypothesis “all in all encompassing”
Known “Mentally handicapped people are an exception.”
Therefore “all” is not meant to be all encompassing
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VociMike
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Does Rom 5:12 exclude stillborn babies and the mentally disabled? Where does it say this? How do you know? Can you give a complete list of exceptions to the “all” of Rom 5:12, and your justification for each exception?
Perhaps if you can give the complete list of exceptions then we can see if Mary fits into any of those exceptions. So you see, this is very much on topic.
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yellowbird
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Sin is choosing to do wrong. Not sure how one “chooses” to do wrong if they have no mental understanding - but whatever… we’ll skip that part - since you agreed that babies and mentally disabled DON’T sin… you did agree that didn’t you?
Forget about Mary… just the young children and disabled? They didn’t sin … correct?
Here… I’ll write it big so you don’t miss it:
Babies and the mentally disabled have not sinned. Yes or no?
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adstrinity
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Does a broken hymen denote that one is not a virgin?
Also, because of in-vetro fertilization…not necesarily.
BUT, note in both cases, the Spirit of God is not involved.
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ConallCernach
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adstrinity
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Look at how Mary is not a sinner!Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.
Blessed be God forever for preserving Our Blessed Virgin Mother, Mary, from sin perpetually!
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JMJ_coder
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I and others have been trying to show you that you’re building your case on a logical fallacy. You are inserting into Scriptures something that is based on an erroneous interpretation.
You claim that the verse from Romans each and every human is sinful. If it admits of no exceptions, then that means that Jesus is a sinner, since Jesus is human. This is clearly contrary to Scripture. If it does admit of exceptions (meaning ‘all’ is a general term, not an absolute one), then that verse can’t be directly imputed to Mary - which means you need to show where else in Scripture it says that the Mother of God is a sinner.
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ConallCernach
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I feel bad that he’s not going to comprehend this.
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yellowbird
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There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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placido
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You mean, St. Paul was thinking about Mary when he wrote Rom 5:12?
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placido
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… and their son, John.
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guanophore
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No.
Biblical scholars, as helpful and knowledgeable as they are, do not determine the teahings.
The Teachings came from the Apostles, and were preserved for us.
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Zooey
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No, your source
rolleyes: James White) says that Catholic translators agree.I mean, I can **say **that the queen of England is a rosebush, but that doesn’t mean she’ll break forth into bloom in the spring.
I can say that I have a billion dollars…but it won’t pay the bills.
Your source can say anything it likes…The truth, when we come to it, is that you are making a lot of claims based on a preconceived opinion.
That wasn’t the question.
You either don’t understand the question, or you refuse to answer it.
I am going to give you credit for some intelligence, and guess that the answer is: You know exactly what question is being asked. You know why it is being asked.
Its being asked for the same reason that you aren’t answering it: You can’t answer without proving that you are arguing from a position that makes no sense. Once you admit the stillborn baby never sinned, you are admitting that your verse doesn’t mean what you want it to mean.
You have NOT answered the question. You’ve even stopped trying to come up with original ways to deflect it.
You’re just repeating yourself, because you can’t answer the question, without contradicting your own presuppositions.
We’re all more than willing that you answer the questrion. We’re practically breathless, waiting for the answer.
But, if you answer…you cut the legs out from under yourself.
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GailMac
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Dear Emerald - I don’t know if this will help you understand how God “saved” you, me and Mary any better but here goes. I’ll try to flesh out the passage in Romans you seem to have a problem with.
“12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.” — This is in reference to Original sin and its consequences.
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. — Please note the effects of Original sin meriting death passed to all those in the underlined text. EVEN OVER THEM ALSO WHO HAVE NOT SINNED. God’s saying that there were those in the world between Adam and Moses who had no personal sins, but still had Original sin.
15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. – Here God is saying that through His Son, Jesus Christ this grace of not sinning was given to those who lived between Adam and Moses. It shows that God, not being confined to the measures of time, through the merits of His Son’s Sacrifice upon the Cross cast those merits upon those who lived between Adam and Moses and preserved them from personal sins.
16 And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation: but grace is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift and of justice shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. ---- And it is by this same grace that those who are to *reign in life *over sin will be preserved. This happened between Adam and Moses, and at other times in our history, and will continue in the future. That is how some or our Saints are still preserved - through the merits of Jesus Christ. I think this is tied to the economy of salvation, but don’t take my word for it - I’m only a silly little laywoman and no biblical scholar by a long shot!
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation: so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. – And here we have the same said but with a different verbage - justification.
19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just. — Please note the text says MANY and not ALL as you hoped.
20 Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound. 21 That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord. — After Moses, God’s people were given the law which freed the weak from having to rely on the “natural law” written on their hearts and God began preparing them to be His chosen people, a holy nation, those He could call His own again by giving the Law through Moses.
Alas, you’ll probably consider these fanciful speculations. But I thought I’d show you how it is possible that God may just have preserved Mary from sin during her life. This passage contains the Biblical “proofs” that there were those who lived between Adam and Moses who didn’t sin. Is it possible He did the same for Mary? As for your trying to get around the Law part, you’re on your own. I’ve got other stuff to do and this thread is way too long as it is. But a clue might be found in another passage that speaks about God freeing from the Law those under it.
Peace,
Gail
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Fox
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Think about it, if God was to be born from a human, wouldn’t God want a perfect vessel for this? God hates (name removed by moderator)urity from sin so Mary would be unblemished from sin for her destiny.
Also, we don’t pray to Mary or anyone for that matter, we pray only to God. We do however, ask Mary to intercede for us.
Also, we don’t pray to Mary or anyone for that matter, we pray only to God. We do however, ask Mary to intercede for us.
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onenow1
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Hi, Emeraldisle
*Mary could not have been immaculately conceived.
So emeraldisle, you are saying that GOD could not have done this?
But Jesus did say this." Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"Matthew 19:26
Didn’t Adam and Eve, and Jesus Christ come into the world without sin? Then please explain to us, why the Mother of GOD could not?
Emeraldisle: If you could chose your mother, what attributes would you give her ? The reason I ask this is, you seem to acknowledge that God protected Jesus, but not His mother I believe this defies logic.
I think you should remember this, where one person of the trinity is so are the other. God does not reside with impurity.
Peace,OneNow1 :twocents
*Mary could not have been immaculately conceived.
So emeraldisle, you are saying that GOD could not have done this?
But Jesus did say this." Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"Matthew 19:26
Didn’t Adam and Eve, and Jesus Christ come into the world without sin? Then please explain to us, why the Mother of GOD could not?
Emeraldisle: If you could chose your mother, what attributes would you give her ? The reason I ask this is, you seem to acknowledge that God protected Jesus, but not His mother I believe this defies logic.
I think you should remember this, where one person of the trinity is so are the other. God does not reside with impurity.
Peace,OneNow1 :twocents
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Jennifer_J
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emeraldisle
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