God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[Tantum_ergo]

I noted you haven’t addressed Psalm 14, to which St. Paul was giving reference in his famous ‘all have sinned’ discourse.

Might I remind you that in Psalm 14, it was said:

All have left the right path, depraved, every one: there is not a good man left, no, not even one.

But He immediately follows with this:

"

Will the evildoers not understand? They eat up my people as though they were eating bread: they never pray to the Lord. See how they tremble with fear, without cause for fear: for God is with the just. You may mock the poor man’s hope, but his refuge is the Lord."

Whoa, Nelly! If ‘all are depraved’. . .then who is God talking about as “my people” being eaten by evildoers? It surely to goodness looks as though the "all are depraved’ is not saying that all humanity is depraved, but that all the evildoers are depraved. “My people” --the ones the evildoers are oppressing. . .the ones the Lord calls “the just” who take refuge with him, are obviously not part of the ‘evildoers’ or the ‘all have sinned’.

How do you explain this, emeraldisle? Remember:

Scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[Allan_M]

I’m simply stating what God tells us in His written word. When God says all of humanity is sinful, why does anyone then say Mary was sinless unless they believe that she wasn’t part of humanity.

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No you are not. The bible does NOT say that Mary sinned does it??? So much for only scripture. And please answer me this (always wanted to say that) where does the bible say it is complete, it is total and that everyone who reads it is protected from error. It doesnot say these things, you are guilty of what you are accusing others of, adding things to scriptuer.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I’m simply stating what God tells us in His written word.

Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?

When God says all of humanity is sinful, why does anyone then say Mary was sinless unless they believe that she wasn’t part of humanity.

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Mary was, by a singular grace of God, preserved from sin in order to be a pure vessel in which to bear the Word Incarnate, Christ. It wasn’t something she did, but a gift that God gave her. While the rest of us had to be pulled out of the mud puddle of sin, Mary was guided around it before she fell in. Weren’t Adam and Eve sinless initially? It’s not impossible for God to create someone without sin.

Do you think Mary was just an incubator and none of her genes were passed on to Jesus?

 

[emeraldisle]

Try to get your mind around this one - God came to save all men from their sins so why wouldn’t He begin with His own mother?

Yes Jesus came into this world to save sinners, like you, me and Mary.

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. 1 Tim 1:15

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[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, He came to save us. And when He saved us on the cross, people who had died ‘righteously’ centuries or millennia before His death were ‘saved’ and able to enter. And people who were born millennia after His death can now be saved.

So why is it so hard for you to understand that God who saved men who had already died thousands of years before the crucifixion, and thousands of years after. . .saved Mary at her conception?

It’s like you’re saying, "I accept that God performed this miracle and saved men who died ages before Christ’s death and resurrection. I accept that God performed this miracle and now people who die ages after Christ’s death and resurrection can be saved.

But, golly gee, I simply can’t accept Him performing the miracle of saving His mother at her conception.

 

[as-a-child]

Exactly he just chose to save his mother from the time he formed her in her mothers womb.

An what good son wouldn’t.

remember you can save someone before they fall off the cliff or while there hanging on the ledge. Either way they’re saved.

 

[emeraldisle]

That does not mean Mary wasn’t sinless. I never said God didn’t make Mary. I also never said that Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Rather, it was the other way around. I said Mary was sinless at conception. .

Yes thats the heart of the problem, you said Mary was sinless at conception but God tells us in His written word that Mary was part of sinful humanity.

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[Pixie_Dust]

Yes thats the heart of the problem, you said Mary was sinless at conception but God tells us in His written word that Mary was part of sinful humanity.

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He created Eve without sin. Isn’t it at least possible that God could save Mary from sin from the moment of her creation?

Luke 1:41-42, 48	And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit; 42 and she lifted up her voice with a loud cry, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

48 For he hath looked upon the low estate of his handmaid: For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Genesis 3:14-15	And the LORD said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Clear reference to Christ - proto-evangelium - only place in Scripture where it is HER seed, not HIS seed. When we sin, we are NOT at enmity with Satan, we are doing the opposite. If there is enmity placed by God between Satan and Mary, how can you say that Mary sinned?

Luke 1:6,15,28,37	(John the Baptist's parents) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.28 And he (Gabriel) came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee. 37 For no word from God shall be void of power	

Revelation 14:3-5 3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth. 4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish. 

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:
Genesis 5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Enoch and Elijah must not have sinned, because they never died. Why not Mary?

 

[emeraldisle]

It’s not impossible for God to create someone without sin.

Yes so God should have created us all without sin and then kept us all from sinning so He wouldn’t have needed to send His Son to die such a cruel death on the cross for sinners.

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[RosaryFan]

Yes thats the heart of the problem, you said Mary was sinless at conception but God tells us in His written word that Mary was part of sinful humanity.

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Emeraldisle, I am done trying to cast my pearls to swine. I know I’m right. You keep your blindfold on and try not to trip.

 

[emeraldisle]

He created Eve without sin. Isn’t it at least possible that God could save Mary from sin from the moment of her creation?

Yes now that we are in the realm of fanciful speculation, lets just say God can create us all without sin and keep us all sinless.

Why did Jesus need to come into this world to save sinners when God can just create us without sin and keep us sinless?

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[Tantum_ergo]

Psalm 14. I already quoted from it twice.

Scripture does not contradict itself.

The “all have sinned” in Psalm 14 is proved, in Scripture itself, not to mean ‘all men’, as in the very next passage, there is reference to ‘the just’ whom these sinners ‘are eating up like bread’.

Since we know that Jesus, though fully human, was shown in scripture "a man like us in all things but sin’, obviously the words “all have sinned” do not mean “Jesus, being a man, sinned too.”
But we also have Scripture telling us that Mary was ‘full of grace’ (and please remember that prior to the tragedy of Protestantism, everyone who read the Bible read either in the Greek the perfect passive participle ‘full of grace’ which indicated not only a one-time but a pre, current, and post-existing state of being so ‘completely full’ that nothing else remained in her, or else the Latin which likewise was understood, “gratia plena”. . .as ‘full of grace’). . .and this was understood to mean that she had been ‘saved from sin’ at her conception.

Of course, Catholics (and Orthodox) have the unestimable benefit of possessing the **two **great teachings of God. . . His written word which is Scripture, and His ‘spoken’ word which is Sacred tradition, both of which are necessary and neither of which contradicts the other.

Unfortunately we have these poor Christians like emeraldisle who limit themselves to only one–and then misinterpret that one teaching such that their Christianity has fractured in hundreds of groups, none of whom all teach the same things although they each frantically insist that **their **interpretation of the Bible is correct and everybody else is wrong. . .and offer as proof ‘The Holy Spirit said it to me". . . --naturally enough they are more crazed and distracted over Mary than even over their interpretation of Jesus’ teachings. . .because they have no true authority and are blinded by their own insistence on being sole arbiters of faith. Sola interpreters, if you will.

 

[emeraldisle]

Emeraldisle, I am done trying to cast my pearls to swine. I know I’m right. You keep your blindfold on and try not to trip.

So Im swine now?

Thanks for discussing this issue with me.

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[RosaryFan]

So Im swine now?

Thanks for discussing this issue with me.

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No, I’m sure you’re not. And you’re welcome. Keep an open mind, will ya?!!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Yes so God should have created us all without sin and then kept us all from sinning so He wouldn’t have needed to send His Son to die such a cruel death on the cross for sinners.

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I would never dare to tell God how to do things.

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6"On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8"Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop’?

 

[redrosetea]

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20

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It would not have mattered. If Mary was sinful Christ would also have been…she was his human mother

 

[emeraldisle]

No, I’m sure you’re not. And you’re welcome. Keep an open mind, will ya?!!

Sometimes I eat like a pig

No hard feelings, all the best to you

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Yes now that we are in the realm of fanciful speculation, lets just say God can create us all without sin and keep us all sinless.

Why did Jesus need to come into this world to save sinners when God can just create us without sin and keep us sinless?

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Sure, God can, but He didn’t and I wouldn’t presume to tell Him that He messed up by letting us be sinners in need of a Savior, and giving us the free will to choose Him over sin. Jesus came to save us from our sins. Mary was the first human to benefit from that gift of God. We, too, can be without sin, because of what Jesus merited for us by His death and resurrection.

 

[emeraldisle]

I would never dare to tell God how to do things.

Yes you are right about that.

Thats why I don’t believe in fanciful speculations, I believe what God tells us in His written word and He has clearly told us that all of humanity is sinful and this includes Mary.

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[Jennifer_J]

I’ll probably do this explaination an injustice and you’ll probably ignore it by repeating, and repeating and repeating your same arguement, but I’ll have a go anyway…

The Old Testament and the New Testament are linked in various ways…Jesus fulfills the prophecy of the OT, for instance. Additionally, you’ll see various Types introduced in the OT that are fullfilled in the NT. The Ark of the Covenant is one example. Historically, we think it contained the Word of God (10 commandments), Aaron’s Rod and Manna. It was HOLY and no one could touch or enter into it’s resting place but once a year, etc… The Ark was kept in the Tabernacle, in it’s own room–the Holy of Holies…Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant–in her womb grew Jesus–THE Word of God Made Flesh, Aaron’s Rod (this one takes study) and THE Manna from Heaven. The fullfillment of the type is always more perfect than the original. The Ark of the Covenant was beyond special and Holy–it could zap you dead if you touched it, even accidentally. Mary is even more Holy and special (though no zapping ) it’s but one reason why we believe she is sinless and a virgin throughout her life…

Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen explains this MUCH better than I do.
Also, here’s a transcript of one of his talks about Mary:
catholic-pages.com/bvm/hahn.asp that touches a bit on the topic
and one more
zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/ma.html
I think that one’s Scott Hahn, too, for no particular reason…