God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[GailMac]

Dear Emeraldisle, what in particular does it take away from you personally to have God manifest His glory in His Mother by preventing the damage done by original sin from taking root in her? Why do you hold to such a despairing and limited view of God’s omnipotence? Can He not do whatever He wants? What will you personally loose by admitting that God can and does conquer sins? I could answer for you analytically but I refrain. It wouldn’t be a “charitable” analysis. Alas sins of this nature have their cost. I can only appeal to the Divine Mercy on your behalf. And from Scripture…14 Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: ‘You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. 15 Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.’ The Gospel of St. Matthew, Chapter 13. May the Divine Mercy heal you.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Mannyfit75]

Remember Jesus is God/Man, this why it is very important that God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless. Also some people respond to the point about all of humanity being sinful by saying Jesus was part of humanity so He must be sinful. Now isn’t great to be able to refute this false argument by saying God tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

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If you want to take “all have sinned” you can add Jesus to that because he is true man and true God. You cannot take the words “all have sinned literally true.” All does not mean all. There are passages in the Bible that all of Israel came to see Jesus and believe. Did all Jews believe? Not all of them did because the Pharisees did not believe.

 

[ConallCernach]

Remember Jesus is God/Man, this why it is very important that God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless. Also some people respond to the point about all of humanity being sinful by saying Jesus was part of humanity so He must be sinful.

The fact that Jesus is fully human and fully divine does not take away from His deity. He is more human that either of us. He is what we are intended to be.

emeraldisle:

Now isn’t great to be able to refute this false argument by saying God tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

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It’s also good to be able to use sacred Tradition which predates the Scriptures and the teachings of early Christians like this:

“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

There are more in this site’s database. =D

 

[Jennifer_J]

You can’t be both created without sin and be born with sin.

More fanciful speculation.

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So, does God really create us with SIN? hmmm??? No, he creates us perfectly and then we are tainted with orginal sin because of Adam and Eve–we have original sin through HUMAN actions, not God’s. Thus, Mary was created perfectly and then SAVED from Original Sin by Jesus’, though for us mere mortals, it seems out of order, for God, who is infinite and outside of time, it’s nothing…

Praying for your heart and mind to be opened…

 

[sodak]

The short answer is, “So what?”

The long answer is that there is a lot that the Bible doesnt’ tell us, in fact, the Bible says that quite directly. That’s why we are so grateful to have the Church and the Magesterium to guide us in our Faith and Doctrine!

 

[Zooey]

Agreed. However, some need the actual word “sinless” for it to be believed as such. (some are just too literal) By the way, this approach you are taking is excellent- and one the Eastern Catholics, and of course the Eastern Orthodox stress. They say she was so filled with grace, sin had no room to enter. Rather than the more typical latin approach, that does not emphasize this positive way of seeing it as much, but in a different (not inferior) way.

This is a terrific insight! Sometimes, the simplest way to say something really is the best…Mary was full of grace. Since she was full of grace, she was NOT full of sin.

Better than that! The Arc of the New Covenant!

Do you remember what was kept in the ark?

http://bestsmileys.com/waving/1.gif Oh, me!!http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/2.gifMe! Me!!!http://bestsmileys.com/waving/3.gif Pick me!!!
The Ark of the Old Covenant was the place where the word of God was kept.
The Ark of the New Covenant was the woman where the Word of God was conceived of the Holy Spirit, where the Word was made Flesh, and dwelt among us. And in the fulness of time, God sent His Son, born of a virgin…

I think --but of course I can’t be sure–according to the way he phrased it, Conall was saying that God originally created humanity (as part of creation that included all the other things in creation) --which would mean Adam and Eve–without sin.

Certainly you and I were born with original sin. . .but Mary was not. You are in for a big surprise one fine heavenly day.

–Emeraldaisle dies and goes into a large room shining with light. Though he has never ‘seen’ them before, he recognizes the beings there --First is Jesus. Nobody could mistake Jesus. There is emeraldisle’s guardian angel. . .now ‘known’. There in the background are all the saints. . .emeraldisle ‘knows’ them. . .St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Stephen the first martyr.

“Ah, emeraldisle” says Jesus. Emeraldisle falls flat on his face. All the sins he has ever done seem to flash before his eyes and he feels his complete unworthiness. “Emeraldisle, your sins are forgiven”, says Jesus. “Now I am taking you to the one who you long for. My Father.”

Emeraldisle beams with joy and relief while still deeply knowing his unworthiness.

Then Jesus beckons and a woman comes forward. There seems to be something familiar about her but emeraldisle just can’t seem to quite recognize her.

“But before you see My Father”, Jesus continues, “You’ll need to get acquainted with My Mother. She was always waiting for you to get to know her on earth but somehow you were never quite. . .um. . .ready then. In fact, I’m surprised you got to know me as well, since you did not know my mother at all.”

St. Peter comes over and whispers to Jesus.

“Oh, of course!” smiles Jesus. “All your friends over at Catholic Answers kept praying and praying for you to My Mother. You never really got to know her, but because of your friends, SHE got to know YOU and intereceded for you and was helping you to know me.”

:tissues: all at once, together…
“…she could not speak, apparently from joy…” [Franny & Zooey–Salinger]

 

[Adsum_Domini]

I’m starting to question the intent of this “person”. Very deceitful, uses confusion by (i"m sure intentionally) stating incorrect Catholics beliefs, and disrespectful of all things, to our Lord’s own Mother. All we can do really is pray for this person and sometimes we have to “dust of our shoes.” I admire many of you for the patience and virtue you have all shown.

 

[guanophore]

However when we go beyond what God tells us in His written word we enter into the realm of fanciful speculation.

Wow. I guess that means the canon of scripture, Trinity, hypostatic union, observing the Sabbath on Sunday, and a great many other things you have accepted are “fanciful speculations”.

Yes we know God created Adam and Eve without sin because He tells us so in His written word. However your idea that Mary was created sinless is just your fanciful speculation.

It always amazes me that some people will accept the canon of scripture from Sacred Tradition, then reject other Teachings that come from the same source. How can that make any sense?

Now how is defamatory treatment of Mary? Also I never said Mary was used and discarded by God. I said God used Mary to give birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus, are you saying this isn’t true?

It comes across sounding like she was a pass thru vessel, kinda like the toilet bowl.

 

[placido]

God did simply use Mary to give birth to Jesus.

Do you dishonor your father and mother because they were “simply used” by God to give birth to you?

 

[Zooey]

I’m starting to question the intent of this “person”. Very deceitful, uses confusion by (i"m sure intentionally) stating incorrect Catholics beliefs, and disrespectful of all things, to our Lord’s own Mother. All we can do really is pray for this person and sometimes we have to “dust of our shoes.” I admire many of you for the patience and virtue you have all shown.

No patience and very little virtue here…I just love my mother too much to back down now.
And then, too, a mule has nothing on me…

But you make a very good point: I have questioned intent for a long time here…
My own personal opinion is that there are either an awful lot of people out there with an unnatural allergy to the Blessed Mother, or else there are an awful lot of people out there with issues about their own mothers, and it seems easier to beat up on Mary than to deal with their own , highly dysfunctional, relationships.:twocents:
But, as always, my opinion & 98 cents will buy you a sweet tea at any McDonalds’ drivethrough… http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif

 

[Zooey]

Christians are not sinless in this earth.

Especially not if you start out with that attitude.
:shrug:Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Personally, I’m trying for the :hug1: “Well done, thou good and faithful servant”.
But if :bigyikes: “Pushing your luck there, weren’t you, Emeraldisle?? Just barely scraped through” does it for you…then that is a pretty darned scary way to live, old thing.
My nerves would never be up to it. But as I say–Hey! http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gifThat’s just me.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

Did you notice the “we” in there?? Now, if you had a copy that said something about Mary in it, that would, maybe, be applicable.
Otherwise, we’re talking about a whole other ball game.

 

[Gamera]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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And God clearly tells us in His oral word — the preaching of the Apostles, which constitutes God’s word (1 Thes 2:13) – that Jesus was born of a sinless virgin.

 

[onenow1]

Originally Posted by emeraldisle
God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

Quote=OneNow1, One things for sure emeraldisle, Blessed Mary, and St. Joseph knew Jesus better then any other persons in the world. Has the thought ever crossed your mind, how you would react to, the awsome responsibility of raising Jesus for 30yrs.

I would also remind you, the angels in heaven stand before God !
So in reality it is indeed God speaking to Mary.

Just some thoughts to reflect on.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[emeraldisle]

If you want to take “all have sinned” you can add Jesus to that because he is true man and true God. You cannot take the words “all have sinned literally true.” All does not mean all.

Your comments demonstrate the need to search the Scriptures in order to know Gods Truth. God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless. However God doesn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless but that she was part of sinful humanity.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

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[VociMike]

Your comments demonstrate the need to search the Scriptures in order to know Gods Truth. God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless. However God doesn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless but that she was part of sinful humanity.

Oh really? Where does God tell us that Mary was part of sinful humanity?

 

[GailMac]

Dear Emeraldisle - I’m feeling a little left out. How come you aren’t answering my questions?

Peace,

Gail

 

[emeraldisle]

So, does God really create us with SIN? hmmm??? No, he creates us perfectly and then we are tainted with orginal sin because of Adam and Eve–we have original sin through HUMAN actions, not God’s. Thus, Mary was created perfectly and then SAVED from Original Sin by Jesus’, though for us mere mortals, it seems out of order, for God, who is infinite and outside of time, it’s nothing…

God tells us in His written word that Adam and Eve were created without sin and then they disobeyed God and sinned and so the curse of death came. God tells us in His written word that sin has passed from Adam to all of humanity and that the curse of death is on all of humanity. Now I know some will say but what about Elijah and Enoch, well God tells us in His written word that He brought them up to heaven without them going through the curse of death. They would have died like all the rest of sinful humanity if God did not bring them straight up to heaven.

God does not tell in His written word that Mary was sinless but Hes does tell us in His written word that she was a human being and so she was part of sinful humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

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[VociMike]

God tells us in His written word that Adam and Eve were created without sin and then they disobeyed God and sinned and so the curse of death came. God tells us in His written word that sin has passed from Adam to all of humanity and that the curse of death is on all of humanity. Now I know some will say but what about Elijah and Enoch, well God tells us in His written word that He brought them up to heaven without them going through the curse of death. They would have died like all the rest of sinful humanity if God did not bring them straight up to heaven.

God does not tell in His written word that Mary was sinless but Hes does tell us in His written word that she was a human being and so she was part of sinful humanity.

What exactly does “sinful humanity” even mean?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

OK, now we’re back to the obvious question. What sin has a stillborn baby committed?

 

[Jennifer_J]

God tells us in His written word that Adam and Eve were created without sin and then they disobeyed God and sinned and so the curse of death came. God tells us in His written word that sin has passed from Adam to all of humanity and that the curse of death is on all of humanity. Now I know some will say but what about Elijah and Enoch, well God tells us in His written word that He brought them up to heaven without them going through the curse of death. They would have died like all the rest of sinful humanity if God did not bring them straight up to heaven.

God does not tell in His written word that Mary was sinless but Hes does tell us in His written word that she was a human being and so she was part of sinful humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

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But God doesn’t create us this way, right? AND God saved Elijah and Enoch, right? Why wouldn’t he also save his Mother? Not everything we know about God and Jesus is in the Bible, right?

 

[emeraldisle]

Dear Emeraldisle, what in particular does it take away from you personally to have God manifest His glory in His Mother by preventing the damage done by original sin from taking root in her? Why do you hold to such a despairing and limited view of God’s omnipotence? Can He not do whatever He wants? What will you personally loose by admitting that God can and does conquer sins?

God works out His purposes according to His plan and His plan is revealed to us in His written word. God could destroy satan right now but He won’t because He tells us in His written word that He has a plan and He will deal with satan according to His plan.

God tells us in His written word that He had a plan to send the Jesus into the world to save sinners, which includes you, me and Mary. God tells us in His written word that He had a plan to bring Jesus into this world through a virgin, He didn’t tell us a sinless virgin.

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