God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[emeraldisle]

No, she wasn’t a stillborn baby. Now please show me the same courtesy I showed you, and answer my question. Did a stillborn baby sin? Yes or no? Because if you answer “no,” there goes your whole argument in this thread, that “all have sinned” means literally every human being.

Your argument is totally flawed because Mary is not a stillborn baby. It is so obvious that Rom 5:12 includes Mary, your use of the stillborn argument, which doesn’t even relate to Mary is a desperate attempt to disprove the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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[Gamera]

Your argument is totally flawed because Mary is not a stillborn baby. It is so obvious that Rom 5:12 includes Mary, your use of the stillborn argument, which doesn’t even relate to Mary is a desperate attempt to disprove the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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Great. Now please answer my question. Did a stillborn baby sin? Yes or no?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And as soon as you answer Gamera, please answer my question. What is Scripture saying in the verse I gave?

 

[Gamera]

While I wait to hear emeraldisle answer “Did a stillborn baby sin?” I will pose another question.

Did Zechariah and Elizabeth (John the baptist’s parents) sin? (Hint: Luke 1:6).

 

[emeraldisle]

Ah, emeraldisle, you missed this post from me last night. Allow me to repeat, and please answer:

Please provide the Scripture ref for this verse and also state what version you are using. I need to read this verse in its context and in an accurate translation.

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[Jennifer_J]

You have conveniently ignored the fact that these Catholic translators don’t use “full of grace”. Its clear that the “full of grace” translation is wrong and even these Catholic translators agree with this fact.

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Didn’t really ignore anything. Can you please post, a direct link please, to where Zerwick talks about “full of grace” and the translation? You see, I don’t think Erik Svedsen is a very reliable source for Catholic information. I really don’t know much about Greek or translation, however, “current” or “modern” translation doesn’t mean correct!!!

 

[emeraldisle]

Great. Now please answer my question. Did a stillborn baby sin? Yes or no?

I have answered your question but obviously not the way you wanted me to answer it. In a fair discussion you can not dictate how a person should answer a question.

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[adstrinity]

Does it bother you that you have have a disagreement with some Catholic Bible translations?

Haha, no. What you quote is incorrect and new. It wasn’t how St. Gabriel said it and it wasn’t how it was originally transcribed.

And as soon as you answer Gamera, please answer my question. What is Scripture saying in the verse I gave?

Could it be saying emeraldisle is wrong?

He hasn’t answered my last question, either if it’s any consolation.

 

[emeraldisle]

Didn’t really ignore anything. Can you please post, a direct link please, to where Zerwick talks about “full of grace” and the translation? You see, I don’t think Erik Svedsen is a very reliable source for Catholic information. I really don’t know much about Greek or translation, however, “current” or “modern” translation doesn’t mean correct!!!

So it seems there is disagreement among Catholics about this translation. You obviously disagree with the translation in the NAB and the JB.

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[Gamera]

I have answered your question but obviously not the way you wanted me to answer it. In a fair discussion you can not dictate how a person should answer a question.
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LOL! No, emeraldisle, you never have answered my question. Every time I ask it, you simply “answer” by asking your question again, “Was Mary a stillborn baby?”. I have answered your question. Mary was not a stillborn baby. Now please answer mine. Did a stillborn baby sin?

Obviously you see that a “No” answer will destroy your manmade interpretation of “all have sinned.” Yet you know the answer cannot be “Yes” if we are speaking of personal sin. So the only way to protect your anti-Biblical argument is to dodge the question.

 

[GailMac]

Hey there Emerald! You state:" Originally Posted by emeraldisle
You have conveniently ignored the fact that these Catholic translators don’t use “full of grace”. Its clear that the “full of grace” translation is wrong and even these Catholic translators agree with this fact." Ummmmmmm…the long reading I just provided DOES say “full of grace” which is a much nicer name for Mary then the one you apply to her - “sinner!” Good thing she’s someplace you’ll never bother her with those words. I don’t like my Mom being spoken of in those terms. Besides, I think saying that about her is a blaspheme. But you’re religion says it’s okay to blaspheme the Mother of God, Mary Most Holy. Shame on you.

Oh, BTW, do you try to provoke Muslims too? Have you dared call their Prophet a phoney? Might want to go have a whack at them for a while. Perhaps they’ll convert and see it your way. You could read to them from your Bible and have fun!

Peace,

Gail

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, it was about the fourth time I’d asked it on this thread.

Psalm 14. Remember now? I had even explained the verses that came before and after, and asked you if Scripture contradicted itself, but there was a lot of discussion and you never got around to it.

 

[emeraldisle]

LOL! No, emeraldisle, you never have answered my question. Every time I ask it, you simply “answer” by asking your question again, “Was Mary a stillborn baby?”. I have answered your question. Mary was not a stillborn baby. Now please answer mine. Did a stillborn baby sin?

You mustn’t be reading my answers. I answered your question in relation to Mary, after all this thread is about Mary.

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[adstrinity]

Well, it was about the fourth time I’d asked it on this thread.

Psalm 14. Remember now? I had even explained the verses that came before and after, and asked you if Scripture contradicted itself, but there was a lot of discussion and you never got around to it.

Ah. Well, yes, that is more than me. I only asked once before.

Is anybody else amused by us pointing out Scripture to emerald to show that, “full of grace,” is Biblical, but, he cannot point out where Mary says She is a sinner…and yet, WE’RE the one’s being scorned for making things up? Hehe

 

[Gamera]

You mustn’t be reading my answers. I answered your question in relation to Mary, after all this thread is about Mary.

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This thread is about Mary. Right.

Your whole argument agasinst Mary’s sinlessness rests on your incorrect view that “all have sinned” means every single human being. Your whole argument against Mary collapses into a pile of dust if you condede that “all” doesn’t literally mean every single human being. So my question is very germane to Mary, and your refusal to answer is very telling, because it reveals that your attack against Mary in this thread is based on your own misunderstanding of “all have sinned.”

If a stillborn baby didn’t sin, then “all have sinned” doesn’t literally mean every individual person, and your attack against Mary falls flat.

This thread is about Mary — specifically about whether “all have sinned” really means every individual human being.

So please stop dodging this relevant, germane, explosive question. Did a stillborn baby sin?

 

[emeraldisle]

Well, it was about the fourth time I’d asked it on this thread.

Psalm 14. Remember now? I had even explained the verses that came before and after, and asked you if Scripture contradicted itself, but there was a lot of discussion and you never got around to it.

Please explain what you mean by this passage of Scripture contradicting itself?

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[Tantum_ergo]

Let’s make it easier. . .

Emeraldisle, if Mary had been a stillborn baby, would she have sinned?

 

[emeraldisle]

Let’s make it easier. . .

Emeraldisle, if Mary had been a stillborn baby, would she have sinned?

I have already stated in this thread that fanciful speculation is wrong. I’m addressing the facts that God has revealed to us in His written word. Now we know Mary was not stillborn and we know that Rom 5:12 does relate to her. The Truth is that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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[emeraldisle]

Hey there Emerald! You state:" Originally Posted by emeraldisle
You have conveniently ignored the fact that these Catholic translators don’t use “full of grace”. Its clear that the “full of grace” translation is wrong and even these Catholic translators agree with this fact." Ummmmmmm…the long reading I just provided DOES say “full of grace” which is a much nicer name for Mary then the one you apply to her - “sinner!” Good thing she’s someplace you’ll never bother her with those words. I don’t like my Mom being spoken of in those terms. Besides, I think saying that about her is a blaspheme. But you’re religion says it’s okay to blaspheme the Mother of God, Mary Most Holy. Shame on you.

Oh, BTW, do you try to provoke Muslims too? Have you dared call their Prophet a phoney? Might want to go have a whack at them for a while. Perhaps they’ll convert and see it your way. You could read to them from your Bible and have fun!

Peace,

Gail

Please calm down and remember I have already stated that Mary was truly blessed to give birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus.

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[ConallCernach]

I have already stated in this thread that fanciful speculation is wrong. I’m addressing the facts that God has revealed to us in His written word. Now we know Mary was not stillborn and we know that Rom 5:12 does relate to her. The Truth is that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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Please explain to me how sola scriptura is not fanciful explanation.

Pax