God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[larry_m]

[Supreme Reason]

Thankyou JMJ for a more in depth reason from the CC instead of an arbitrary reason. The way I read it, & I may be wrong in my interpretation, the Church is saying Mary was made sinless to pass this same nature on to our Savior. Please correct me if I am reading it wrong. Thankyou for your reply.

 

[VociMike]

VociMike;4245653:

…apples & oranges]

Thanks Mike for the Greek lesson. My question is, how does this prove the sinlessness of Mary? Why didn’t the writers use the same language they did for the perfect sinlessness of our Savior? It is beyond very vague for Mary. It seems that the interpretation takes alot of free expression on mans part to come up with Marys sinlessness from just this phrase. If you keep it in context, it has nothing to do with being sinless. From Eve to Mary, all believing woman were hoping to be the one to be the progenitor of the Messiah. Thanks for your replies.

I wouldn’t claim that it proves anything. What it does is support the Catholic teaching. That doesn’t surprise me, since the Catholic teaching came directly from God.

And I wouldn’t ever presume to guess why the writers of scripture wrote what they wrote, and used what words they used, and left out what they left out. What matters to me is that the teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter is very clear.

It is critical to understand that Catholic doctrine does not come from Scripture. The Church does not think “let us look to the bible to determine what we believe.” Rather, Scripture reflects the teachings received from God, as does Sacred Tradition.

 

[VociMike]

[Your insisting that God have a reason…]

Well I don’t know about you, but the One I worship is not arbitrary nor a respecter of persons. What does being sinless have to do with free will? Because we are sinners we don’t have free will? I guess we are just a bunch of automatons with no mind to choose. Goes against, “Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me & my house, we choose Elohim (God).” Kind of a far stretch to prove the sinlessness of Mary. Thanks for your replies.

It seems obvious to me that sin and our fallen nature affects our free will. It does not eliminate our free will, but it does affect it, distort it. Why else do we, as Christians, ever refuse to do God’s will in anything, large or small?

 

[ConallCernach]

The advancement of this thread is depressing. Well, the advancement of the OP is depressing.

 

[larry_m]

…wouldn’t claim it proves]

Thankyou Mike for your straight forward & honest answer.

 

[emeraldisle]

First and foremost, because it’s true, and the Church lacks the authority to erase or remove anything from God’s revelation to humanity.

Gods revelation to us in His written word is;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Now you can try and argue against God and the fact that He has revealed to us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.

.

 

[redrosetea]

No she is not she was the sinless ark of the new covenant…I wonder how Christ feels about you insulting His mother?

 

[emeraldisle]

The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant.

Jesus Christ is the Ark.

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[RNRobert]

Jesus Christ is the Ark.

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Nope, Jesus is the New Covenant.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Jesus Christ is the Ark.

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No, He is the New Covenant. Matt 26:28.

 

[emeraldisle]

I think what you are missing in all of this is that without her yes we would not of been saved. No Mary = No Christ

Who gave Mary her life?

Who gave Mary her womb?

Who gave Mary the ability to think?

Who gave Mary the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus?

Who forgave Mary her sins?

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Hi, Again emeraldisle
Here’s the rub , from all eternity God knew all things and what he was going to do. Your insistance that Mary was either born with sin or commited sin, relying on one verse of scripture is ???

Yes I’m relying on the Truth that God has revealed to us in His written word.

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[Pixie_Dust]

Gods revelation to us in His written word is;

This was posted in another thread and I wanted to share it here:

Scripture isn’t even revelation itself. It is a vehicle of revelation. Christ Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and that is where it stops. Holy Scripture is inspired and God-breathed but it is not revelation in itself.

You keep posting that passage from Romans, which doesn’t say what you want it to say. Do you have a passage that clearly states what sin Mary committed?

 

[mich2]

Gods revelation to us in His written word is;

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Now you can try and argue against God and the fact that He has revealed to us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.

.

How do you understand Jesus’ words:

I tell you solemnly, of all the children born of women a greater than John the Baptist has never been seen.

Andre

 

[sodak]

I have already stated in this thread that fanciful speculation is wrong. I’m addressing the facts that God has revealed to us in His written word. Now we know Mary was not stillborn and we know that Rom 5:12 does relate to her. The Truth is that Mary is part of sinful humanity.
.

God tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless, so He is the exception. There is no contradiction but just plain Truth that God has revealed to us in His written word.

Mary is included in the all in Rom 5:12, so are you and so am I.
.

More fanciful speculation.

FYI re IC: The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states, “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
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You seem to be enamored with the term “fanciful speculation”. You believe in the Bible, but don’t believe the authors when they explain it. And yes, the Bible WAS written by the Catholic Church, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The only document that I’m aware of written by God were the 10 commandments. Twice.

Attempting to twist the meaning of the Bible on your own authority is ridiculous. You are looking for meaning where there isn’t any, and rejecting the explanation of the authors. Shame on you.

That’s what “fanciful speculation” is.

 

[RNRobert]

Yes I’m relying on the Truth that God has revealed to us in His written word.

But did God reveal Truth using ONLY the written word?

So then, brethren, stand fast to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Thess 2:15

…hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2

The Church was in existence for nearly a decade, teaching by word of mouth, before pen was ever set to paper on what would be the New Testament. It would take several decades for all of the NT to be written, and a couple centuries before the canon was agreed upon. Also, the NT books were written to people who had already been taught the faith BY WORD OF MOUTH. So how can you be sure everything Jesus wanted taught was written down verbatim?

 

[emeraldisle]

But did God reveal Truth using ONLY the written word?

God is His perfect wisdom knew that when He told us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful that some people would try to use this to argue that Jesus was sinful. So He clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

Now some people are trying to suggest that Mary was sinless, even though God tells us in His written word that all of humanity accept Jesus is sinful. So God didn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless because she wasn’t but He does tell us that Jesus was sinless because He was.

.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

God is His perfect wisdom knew that when He told us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful that some people would try to use this to argue that Jesus was sinful. So He clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

Now some people are trying to suggest that Mary was sinless, even though God tells us in His written word that all of humanity accept Jesus is sinful. So God didn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless because she wasn’t but He does tell us that Jesus was sinless because He was.

.

“But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…” ~ Martin Luther, who started the whole Sola Scriptura confusion that Protestants are now in.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Gee, emeraldisle, you got called away last night before you could answer questions people were asking of you. I know you want to address them.

So:

From JMJ Coder:

Please show where it says explicitly “Mary is a sinner” - remember her name must be used in the verse; you cannot interpolate, since that has already been shown to be a no-go over and over and over and over again here.

From VociMike:

We require your answer in order to frame our answer. Give an answer and you’ll get an answer. Just tell us, if you simply can’t discuss the sins of stillborn babies, who does Rom 5:12 apply to? Who is exempt from Rom 5:12 and who is not exempt?

From me

Emeraldisle, please answer the question.

Does a stillborn–or a newborn–sin?

Yes. . .or no.

It is such a simple and petty question. Why can’t you simply answer?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

God’s written word, eh?.

Now you tell us. . .holding to the written word, who does ‘all’ mean? We know you think it means Mary. . .are you also saying that stillborn babies and infants have sinned? Are part of “all have sinned”? What is God’s written word saying? Are you willing to tell us?