God's Foreknowledge and Free Will Vs Choice

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rinnie said:
Exactly and as I stated because God preordains someone to Glory is not because he choose it, he saw the end of the life of that person and how he choose to glorify God.

Your definition of predestination is that because God sees it, he caused it, in which I have said time after time I disagree with, because it would take away free will.

You seem to claim because God does indeed sees he makes it happen, and that is wrong.

ANd because God does preordains future events, or things in now way means he preordains the things you claim he does.

Anotherwords because God indeed preordains SOMETHINGS, in no way States he Preordains ALL things. Which is what you continue to make it say. And cannot understand by giving us free will, we ordain our lives, and God sees how it ends.

But you continue to say its is the fault of God because he gave us free will to make the right or wrong choices. Because if we make the right choices, then God make them happen, and if we make the wrong choices, again God makes them, then we indeed have no free will, which is wrong. IF that were true we as we speak would have no free will.

By the way if you want proof that God does not preordain all things, especially evil, here is my proof. God preordains for us all to go to heaven and not sin. But by our own free will we sin and disobey.

If he preordains everything there would be no sin in this world whatsoever. And we would have no free will to sin.
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We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784), all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact
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newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
 
Aloysium said:
I’m sorry but this deserves a resounding rofl.

You did finish reading the sentence:

What are you trying to say that I am missing here?
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I read that and much more…how about you?..They say that, and more, with no logical argument. Actually, I’ve read most of the Encyclopedia, the Catechism in its entirety and seven versions of the bible. Logic, even in a feeble human mind is still logic.

John
 
oldcelt said:
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
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No one is denying this. Please read the Catholic Dogma that you continue to post here. And if you do it is clear that the Church does NOT teach the heresies of one class that slights God and makes Salvation of Man Alone.

And the second class of heresies that makes God ALONE responsible for everything.

If you would PLEASE read it instead of continuing to post it, your answer is there. It states those who seek the reason of predestination solely in the absolute will of God are grati irresistibilis.

It tells you clearly Catholic dogma is between the extremes Its clear eternal happiness is the Primary result of God and his Grace. But what you refuse to accept for some reason is that the Church teaches it is not only the Primary result of God and his Grace, it is truly dependent of the secondary result which is the reward of the merits of the persons actions.

SO it is not either God will one to heaven and that’s it, or that God does not will one to heaven. It is and let me make this clear one more time, and there is no way to make this more simple.

If a person goes to heaven if is ONLY because GOD willed it, and that Person also complied and used their free will and FREELLY joined their FREE WILL with the will of God and choose to follow him and were rewarded for their merits.

There is no God willed it, and the person did nothing. There is no God did not will it and the person did everything good. There is no ONE way.

God sees where a person struggles in this world and indeed puts help in their path, its is called his Grace and his grace is done in many ways. But that grace has to be taken on the will of the person also.
 
In Layman’s Terms. You desire a Cake. God gives you the eggs flour, directions etc. Oven, etc. Everything you possibly need to make that cake.

But you have to make the cake. It is you and God working together to make this possible.

Even if you make a mistake and the cake fails, once again God gives you the same ingredients to try again until you succeed.

That is exactly how life works. And the foreknowledge and free will work. God gives us whatever we need to be happy. He goes through life with us supplying us with his abundance Grace to continue through the struggles that may come. But he always has a solution if we reach out and ask for it.

As the Church teaches in the end Eternal happiness is indeed a result of the Grace of God, but it is also the persons reward for the merits they received for accepting and using the Grace given. There is no easier way to explain this.

God + Man working together for eternal life.
 
oldcelt said:
I read that and much more…how about you?..They say that, and more, with no logical argument. . . Logic, even in a feeble human mind is still logic. . .
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Logic is only as good as the premises that underlie the argument.
God is omniscient and we have free will. For me indisputable reality, for you it is something called “faith”.
You have spoken about what you hold to be true; and limited to what is of this world, you are not deluded.
But, there is so much more.
 
What part of immutably preordains all future events is up for discussion? Preordination is causation. It cannot logically co-exist with free will…that is why it is described as a great mystery…because there is no logical answer.
I have taken what I view as the logical route…I reject the notion of intervention by God. We are on our own on this planet, have absolute free will, and are responsible for all of our successes and failures. God is the first cause of creation, not a micro-manager, in my view (faith if you will).

John
 
oldcelt said:
What part of immutably preordains all future events is up for discussion? Preordination is causation. It cannot logically co-exist with free will…that is why it is described as a great mystery…because there is no logical answer.
I have taken what I view as the logical route…I reject the notion of intervention by God. We are on our own on this planet, have absolute free will, and are responsible for all of our successes and failures. God is the first cause of creation, not a micro-manager, in my view (faith if you will).

John
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That is your opinion. You are welcome to it. But because you refuse to believe and accept the teaching of the RCC in no way makes it a false teaching.

In your mind or opinion you believe it cannot exist. In our mind we can see clearly how it not only can but does exist.

We cannot make you see something or understand something. But just because you cannot see or understand does not mean that we cannot, and do see it…
 
oldcelt said:
I read that and much more…how about you?..They say that, and more, with no logical argument. Actually, I’ve read most of the Encyclopedia, the Catechism in its entirety and seven versions of the bible. Logic, even in a feeble human mind is still logic.

John
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No I have not read the entire Encyclopedia, nor need to to understand the teaching of the Church.🤷
 
Then if god is clairvoyant on all things or enough to forsee important things and has an army of angels for this fallen world my question is why is there not more instances of devine intervention to rescue jesus’ flock from the wicked or from terrible events befallen on people that do not deserve it? Then what of devine intervention if god is believably here clairvoyant and has choirs of heaven to serve as well as an immense number of followers on earth not just in catholisism and christianity but also the faiths of judiesm and the muslim faiths as we admit we are all worshipping the same God. ? Should my screen name be the more i find out the less that i know?
 
:twocents:

How would preordination fit with free will?

Preordination is not omniscience, but speaks to God’s involvement in creation.
Creation includes our existence as beings, free to choose who we become.
This choice occurs within the context of circumstances which are outside our control, including genetics, societal, familial and cultural factors, physical events, as well as the graces granted to us by God.
Creation has been set in motion and is maintained by God who directs it according to His will.
We decide within the totality of existence, what role we will play - Judas or Peter.
We each have the capacity for Sainthood. Some choose otherwise.
It is all about being good; everything else is rust and dust.
 
If there’s free will what of documentations of precognitive experiances? I have had accidental personal experiances of people proving themselves to my disatisfaction to be very physchic and accurate more so then the parlory overgeneralisations and information pulling question techniques. Straw grasp method i call it. how can fate exist beside free will the if the end is already been written?
 
Side note since judas of isscariates name has been mentioned does anyone here know the churches stance on the acceptance of validity or the rejection of that there of on the findings of the book of judas ? If this book is taken from the bible then whoever has done so would be guilty of the last sin of revelations where anyone to alter or remove things from the good book face punishment eternal? And does not the church alter and edit as well as choose which books to recognise or reject in portrayal of the bible to the public? If every denomination has a bit differant bible as well as the replishings of different versions. is that not to remove a single line or alter the bible and a eternal sin as stated in the end of revelation? Are these questions not valid?
 
istilllookup said:
. . . how can fate exist beside free will the if the end is already been written?
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:twocents:

There is no fate.
There are many things we are given - our social circumstances which are intimately tied to our mental capacities for example.
We are eternal beings on a transformational journey of discovering Love.
The end is not written at this moment in time.
We decide the outcome.
God knows the outcome as well as knowing all His efforts to guide us to Himself.
 
If the end is not written please explain the entire book of revelation that we’ve been taught to believe. also may i gently renerate thousands of scientifically documented cases of precognitive thought preminitions as well as prophesy. If there is no such thing as fate then you can explain all this away how? Possitive note i do agree our souls are eternal beings. Even the bible speaks of fate as revelation and prophesy would not be so. Peter was not then fated to deny Jesus three times before the rooster crows? If fate is not possible then how could jesus know it to be so?
 
And since revelations is on my mind now can any endtimes people please show me a wasp with the head of a human and long blond hair. or the beast in the pit or the eagle headed lion with eyeballs allover it. we need a zoo for these things 🙂
 
I think a lesson on what preordains actually means is in order, because I’m reading a lot of improper usage of a very simple concept.
Pre= before
Ordain = a to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people … do ordain and establish this Constitution — United States Constitution>
b :destine, foreordain

Add the two together and what do you get? I have enough confidence in the intelligence of the upper echelons of my former Church to believe that they knew the definition and still chose to use the word when the encyclopedia was written and approved.

John
 
God, the world, the devil and the flesh.

You must will to do God’s will not your own.

You will reason and cooperate with God’s grace or you will resist.

Do not commit adultery.

You will either fornicate with that married woman or you will not. You will or will not. No pun intended. 😃
 
DanAl said:
If reason is identical to or reducible to a wholly material process, then abstract would be impossible.
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Yes.

You can commit adultery with a married woman. You act on free will to sin. You can say no I could not resist. But yes you could.

There but for the grace of God go I.
 
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