God's Foreknowledge and Free Will Vs Choice

[Tom_Baum]

Believe every single word. There is no sin that we can do that will not be forgiven by God if we want it. When Jesus died on the cross it was by that death that our sin can even be forgiven. Man has no power to forgive sins, only God can do so. And it is by the death of his Son that made the forgiveness of sins possible.

There is only one Sin that cannot be forgiven, which of course makes sense, which is to reject God. Because how could someone want forgiveness for their sin From God if they don’t even believe in him.

But every word. God paid the price. We go to him, ask him to forgive us, and by his power of the Holy Spirit he gives us the grace to stop the sin, and be one with him again.

You wrote, “There is only one Sin that cannot be forgiven, which of course makes sense, which is to reject God. Because how could someone want forgiveness for their sin From God if they don’t even believe in him.”

Jesus, Himself, mentioned one sin that can not be forgiven.

Many people thru the age have come to the conclusion that they do not know exactly what this “sin”, spoken of by Jesus is, but I see that you seem to know exactly what it is, interesting.

So you have come to the conclusion that you know exactly what “blasphemy of Holy Spirit” means, have you conferred with the “higher-ups” to let them know what “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” means?

 

[Ignatius]

I’ve enjoyed reading the many discussions on this forum about God’s foreknowledge and the implications for free will.

John, there are absolutely No implications for free will Byron foreknowledge. That is a completely erroneous and rapacious conflation of two separate things. Knowing does not in any way influence choosing.

 

[oldcelt]

John, there are absolutely No implications for free will Byron foreknowledge. That is a completely erroneous and rapacious conflation of two separate things. Knowing does not in any way influence choosing.

But preordination of future events most certainly would.

 

[Tom_Baum]

But preordination of future events most certainly would.

This is merely my opinion, but I believe that you have a “too small” conception of God but not to worry, there are many that believe in God that have a “too small” conception of God and think/believe that they know absolutely everything that can possibly be known, and than some it seems in some cases, about God.

To my small finite mind, it seems impossible for a Being to “know everything past, present and future about everyone” and for the “everyones” to have free will, so I don’t for a second “understand” how this can be but I accept that God is “bigger” than my ability to conceive, in other words for me to conceive of but I nevertheless accept this as being true.

I, suppose, one of the reasons that I “accept” this is that I accept as a “fact” that I am responsible for my actions, so it is not without thought that I accept this to be true but it is without “knowing how it can be” that I accept it to be true.

 

[oldcelt]

This is merely my opinion, but I believe that you have a “too small” conception of God but not to worry, there are many that believe in God that have a “too small” conception of God and think/believe that they know absolutely everything that can possibly be known, and than some it seems in some cases, about God.

To my small finite mind, it seems impossible for a Being to “know everything past, present and future about everyone” and for the “everyones” to have free will, so I don’t for a second “understand” how this can be but I accept that God is “bigger” than my ability to conceive, in other words for me to conceive of but I nevertheless accept this as being true.

I, suppose, one of the reasons that I “accept” this is that I accept as a “fact” that I am responsible for my actions, so it is not without thought that I accept this to be true but it is without “knowing how it can be” that I accept it to be true.

I respect that Tom…I do not believe that God preordains or predestines anything. To do so opens a can of logical conundrums, and I have never been good at accepting “mystery” as an answer. We agree that we are responsible for our own actions.

 

[istilllookup]

Hello to you all. i find this a very interesting topic with some elaborate multi educated perspectives and that is appreciated. I’ve read of the universe as well as the pyschological and probably electrode study of the human mind as well as perspectives of god knowing our actions before they start i pose a different angle of my own personal experiance as if we are gods sheep looking up begging for interventions of things beyond our controll we know from our own educations experiance and collective shared knowledge for our prayers being seen as what is best for others community n self fail to see any improvement? If free will exists then what of fate? Y do some people have precognative recollections of things that will come to pass if a single descission could derail a predicted event y is there so much accurate documentation of phsychic ability and will these people really sit in heavens courtyard as written in revelations of socery and other methods suggested for cultivating similar results or talents? I tried to give my free will to God because I did not want to dissappoint my God and loved ones and have concluded and admired angels to be said to have no will for thier own they simply do gods bidding as explained to me by multiple sources i thought if i could give my will to god i would never disappoint myself or others. it obviously did not work. but i thought it was a good idea. and also dogmatically stated if angels can have no free will thier own how could a third defect from heaven and seek human destruction here of thier own volition when they could only serve gods will? My perspective is obviously not as well versed in pyschology nor ever expansive universal concepts yet the broad strokes are nowhere near completely lost on me just a few of the details. the perspectives are intellectual and appreciated n i have felt for a long time that its an intertwined combination of all these things . insights welcome explanations of profesy and predestinations if there is free will implored… thanks for the read n replies.

 

[rinnie]

You wrote, “There is only one Sin that cannot be forgiven, which of course makes sense, which is to reject God. Because how could someone want forgiveness for their sin From God if they don’t even believe in him.”

Jesus, Himself, mentioned one sin that can not be forgiven.

Many people thru the age have come to the conclusion that they do not know exactly what this “sin”, spoken of by Jesus is, but I see that you seem to know exactly what it is, interesting.

So you have come to the conclusion that you know exactly what “blasphemy of Holy Spirit” means, have you conferred with the “higher-ups” to let them know what “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” means?

If you mean the Church then yes, If you refuse to accept Christ and his Salvation and refuse to repent your sins. That’s what was always taught.

Is called harden of hearts in the bible.

 

[rinnie]

I am simply saying that if God is Omniscient than God “knows” everything: past, present and future.

Is this what you think/believe Omniscient means or do you have a different definition or perspective on Omniscience?

If you think/believe that Omniscience is simply to “KNOW EVERYTHING: PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE” than that would mean that God “knew”, quite simply, everything about everyone even before anyone did anything, very simple, actually, even if it is beyond our understanding to “know” how God can be Omniscient and us having free will.

Knowing what something means (definition) does NOT necessarily mean that someone “knows” how it can be.

I am sure not sure what you are asking but do I believe God is Omniscience, Yes I do.

And I don’t have a problem understanding how God can know if we will use the free will given to us to choose him or not choose him. Because he knows everything. Past present and future.

But I don’t see how God being all knowing of past present future (knowing what we will do, have done or are doing changes free will.

 

[rinnie]

But preordination of future events most certainly would.

Why can you not understand that the RCC does not teach nor has ever taught that God ever foreordained anyone to evil. ITs never happened.

God predestines no one to evil ever. The council of Orange actually forbids us to ever believe such a thing.

Its time to fest up now. I showed you the official Church teaching the Council of Orange, that God never foreordained anyone to evil.

Now you show me official Roman Catholic Teaching that states God indeed foreordained anyone to evil. You will not be able to produce it because it was never taught. I have given you the official Church teaching that God does no such thing, what more do you want?

Until you can produce official teaching that contradicts official Church Teaching what is there to argue about. We have given you the Church teaching.

 

[rinnie]

As I said earlier I believe on this post, The Church teaches Dogmatically how God Predestines the Elect. Rather Conditional or Unconditional Election.

Catholics believe God predestines no one to hell nor takes pleasure in their sin.

God gives everyone sufficient grace to all the freedom to turn to God and be saved.

The Church teaches Positive Conditional Reprobation

When God created the world him being OMNICIENCE (as I state I totally believe and agree with) he FORESAW the reprobates REJECTION to his GRACE and let THEM use the Freedom to do so. YET GOD STILL GRANTS THEM TO BE SAVED AND STILL GIVES THEM SUFFICIENT GRACE.

But all you keep hearing here is by people who cannot accept this, or understand this is simply it cannot be done. Which means the Grace of God is insufficient. Which is so totally False.

 

[oldcelt]

Why can you not understand that the RCC does not teach nor has ever taught that God ever foreordained anyone to evil. ITs never happened.

God predestines no one to evil ever. The council of Orange actually forbids us to ever believe such a thing.

Its time to fest up now. I showed you the official Church teaching the Council of Orange, that God never foreordained anyone to evil.

Now you show me official Roman Catholic Teaching that states God indeed foreordained anyone to evil. You will not be able to produce it because it was never taught. I have given you the official Church teaching that God does no such thing, what more do you want?

Until you can produce official teaching that contradicts official Church Teaching what is there to argue about. We have given you the Church teaching.

They clearly state in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which goes into a great deal more detail than the Catechism that God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains future events. In my world, that is setting the playing field. Besides, predestining someone to glory is still a violation of free will. The two concepts are mutually exclusionary…no matter what type of explanation is offered…and they are very weak…finally resorting to the standby “mystery.”

 

[istilllookup]

Your saying god predestines no one to evil yet knows the future. If god knows our actions n furthermore the actions of satan and his armies then y do the innocent get victumised by evil if god would predestine no one to it knowing exactly what forces will collide to destroy or injure innocent among his flock if god did not predestine anyone to eveil explain to me the book of JOB. Was gods idea to predestine a perfect man to much evil of affliction by sayn na i don’t think hell flip but go head. Bet. just to see. he has done this twice now to perfect men that the bible states. If i create a disagreement then watch it travestate a globe for thousands of years n am said to know past present and future then wouldn’t those bellow suffering praying everyday seek a validation for why its innevitable and that if i knew everything everyone would do n say afterward could i be excused for not orchestrating it? And the one sin that’s said to be unforgivable is a blaspheme of the holly spirit not jesus nor god. also pretty bad sounding to harm a lil one of his flock i don’t know anyone likes millstone swimming. aalso y job if he was perfect how can devastation improve perfection.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I respect that Tom…I do not believe that God preordains or predestines anything. To do so opens a can of logical conundrums, and I have never been good at accepting “mystery” as an answer. We agree that we are responsible for our own actions.

As far as “I do not believe that God preordains or predestines anything”, I believe that the only thing that God “preordains or predestines” is what God is going to do.

What any of us does, I do not look at as preordained or predestined, just known by God.

I can see how someone could say that I am just using semantics to say the same thing differently but I think/believe that there is a big difference between someone “knowing” something and someone “preordaining or predestining”, one is knowledge, the other is “puppet on a string” material.

I HAVE to accept “mystery” for the simple reason that I “know” a little and by knowing a little this makes me realize that there are some things that are, to put it mildly, past my way of knowing thru any human means.

What I am trying to say is that by “knowing” some things thru God revealing these things to me that I know; I realize that I could never come to know on my own, makes me realize that there are other things that I could not know thru any merely human means.

Another thing that I would like to say is that there are many things that I believe, just because I believe something does NOT mean that it is true, it merely means that I believe something.

I do try to differentiate between what I “know” and what I “believe”.

I believe that God Is Omniscient and I believe that we have free will and since I have these two beliefs, I then go on to believe that God took what God knew by His Omniscience into consideration when God came up with God’s Plan which I believe God came up with even before creation.

I am trying to say that just because I do not know just how God’s Plan unfolds, nevertheless, I believe that God’s Will will come to Fruition.

And as it is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

One of the other things that I “believe” about God is that quite a few of those who seem to think that they “know” so much about God seem to “know” pretty much nothing about God beyond God’s Name.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I am sure not sure what you are asking but do I believe God is Omniscience, Yes I do.

And I don’t have a problem understanding how God can know if we will use the free will given to us to choose him or not choose him. Because he knows everything. Past present and future.

But I don’t see how God being all knowing of past present future (knowing what we will do, have done or are doing changes free will.

As far as I am concerned, free will is either free or it isn’t, it isn’t contingent on God’s Omniscience.

What I am saying about God’s Omniscience is tied to what God said about Himself when He said, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.

God could have Thoughts about Ways to bring about the Sanctification of ALL of God’s creation that we have not ever even thought about.

Actually, I believe that one of the Eucharistic prayers at Mass speaks about the SANCTIFICATION of ALL of God’s creation, this is one of the reasons why I believe that the vernacular can be very nice to use since there can be times that it might even get some to ponder what they have never pondered before.

There can be a difference between pretty sounds that can be basically meaningless if one knows not what they mean and beautiful words that can just warm the heart in pondering just what God might be up to, with the unfolding of God’s Plan.

 

[rinnie]

As far as I am concerned, free will is either free or it isn’t, it isn’t contingent on God’s Omniscience.

What I am saying about God’s Omniscience is tied to what God said about Himself when He said, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.

God could have Thoughts about Ways to bring about the Sanctification of ALL of God’s creation that we have not ever even thought about.

Actually, I believe that one of the Eucharistic prayers at Mass speaks about the SANCTIFICATION of ALL of God’s creation, this is one of the reasons why I believe that the vernacular can be very nice to use since there can be times that it might even get some to ponder what they have never pondered before.

There can be a difference between pretty sounds that can be basically meaningless if one knows not what they mean and beautiful words that can just warm the heart in pondering just what God might be up to, with the unfolding of God’s Plan.

I get what you are saying now, I agree, Free will has nothing to do with Gods Omniscience.

 

[rinnie]

As far as “I do not believe that God preordains or predestines anything”, I believe that the only thing that God “preordains or predestines” is what God is going to do.

What any of us does, I do not look at as preordained or predestined, just known by God.

I can see how someone could say that I am just using semantics to say the same thing differently but I think/believe that there is a big difference between someone “knowing” something and someone “preordaining or predestining”, one is knowledge, the other is “puppet on a string” material.

I HAVE to accept “mystery” for the simple reason that I “know” a little and by knowing a little this makes me realize that there are some things that are, to put it mildly, past my way of knowing thru any human means.

What I am trying to say is that by “knowing” some things thru God revealing these things to me that I know; I realize that I could never come to know on my own, makes me realize that there are other things that I could not know thru any merely human means.

Another thing that I would like to say is that there are many things that I believe, just because I believe something does NOT mean that it is true, it merely means that I believe something.

I do try to differentiate between what I “know” and what I “believe”.

I believe that God Is Omniscient and I believe that we have free will and since I have these two beliefs, I then go on to believe that God took what God knew by His Omniscience into consideration when God came up with God’s Plan which I believe God came up with even before creation.

I am trying to say that just because I do not know just how God’s Plan unfolds, nevertheless, I believe that God’s Will will come to Fruition.

And as it is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

One of the other things that I “believe” about God is that quite a few of those who seem to think that they “know” so much about God seem to “know” pretty much nothing about God beyond God’s Name.

Also with that said, I disagree with you on this. I do believe God predestines things. I believe he predestined for us to be born. For the world to be created, etc. With that said, I think the point should be God does not predestine EVERYTHING, especially evil.

 

[rinnie]

They clearly state in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which goes into a great deal more detail than the Catechism that God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains future events. In my world, that is setting the playing field. Besides, predestining someone to glory is still a violation of free will. The two concepts are mutually exclusionary…no matter what type of explanation is offered…and they are very weak…finally resorting to the standby “mystery.”

Exactly and as I stated because God preordains someone to Glory is not because he choose it, he saw the end of the life of that person and how he choose to glorify God.

Your definition of predestination is that because God sees it, he caused it, in which I have said time after time I disagree with, because it would take away free will.

You seem to claim because God does indeed sees he makes it happen, and that is wrong.

ANd because God does preordains future events, or things in now way means he preordains the things you claim he does.

Anotherwords because God indeed preordains SOMETHINGS, in no way States he Preordains ALL things. Which is what you continue to make it say. And cannot understand by giving us free will, we ordain our lives, and God sees how it ends.

But you continue to say its is the fault of God because he gave us free will to make the right or wrong choices. Because if we make the right choices, then God make them happen, and if we make the wrong choices, again God makes them, then we indeed have no free will, which is wrong. IF that were true we as we speak would have no free will.

By the way if you want proof that God does not preordain all things, especially evil, here is my proof. God preordains for us all to go to heaven and not sin. But by our own free will we sin and disobey.

If he preordains everything there would be no sin in this world whatsoever. And we would have no free will to sin.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Also with that said, I disagree with you on this. I do believe God predestines things. I believe he predestined for us to be born. For the world to be created, etc. With that said, I think the point should be God does not predestine EVERYTHING, especially evil.

So, are you saying that God “knows” everything (good and bad) and predestines the good stuff or at least some of it, but doesn’t predestine the bad stuff but knows about both stuffs?

Would you consider those that are “predestined” for good to be capable of overturning their good?

If not, than wouldn’t you have to say that they have no choice in the matter and that no matter what they did, they would go to the “good place”, since they are “predestined” to go to the “good place”?

I happen to believe that “predestination” and “knowing” are two different things, do you?

And saying that, I believe that the “predestination” spoken of in the bible is actually speaking of “knowing” rather than predestining.

 

[rinnie]

So, are you saying that God “knows” everything (good and bad) and predestines the good stuff or at least some of it, but doesn’t predestine the bad stuff but knows about both stuffs?

Would you consider those that are “predestined” for good to be capable of overturning their good?

If not, than wouldn’t you have to say that they have no choice in the matter and that no matter what they did, they would go to the “good place”, since they are “predestined” to go to the “good place”?

I happen to believe that “predestination” and “knowing” are two different things, do you?

And saying that, I believe that the “predestination” spoken of in the bible is actually speaking of “knowing” rather than predestining.

To answer your first question I do believe God predestines the good stuff, but my free will plays a part in it also. My Daughter and Son I believe were predestined by God and by combining my free will to the will of God they were born.

But to say God predestines the bad stuff, No, Because God does not predestine evil. Never for any reason.

And I TOTALLY agree that those who were predestined for good used their free will to overturn what God predestined for us, but not that we were more powerful then God, but that he gave us the power to do so.

Like the story of giving the 3 men in the bible money, Remember that one, That all had the free will to do the right thing. 2 did, one failed. But they all had the same predestination you could say, to fail or succeed. Even though God knew how it would turn out, he gave them free will and they had the chance.

And God wanted them to all Succeed. But he saw before they began one failed. Not because he caused it, but because he knows all.

But if this makes sense, (Try hard, okay, to see what I am saying) It would be like this. 3 kids drive down the road in a car, each told to do the speed limit, they all come back and 2did the speed limit one did not. You had a camera in the car, saw who failed, who did not. But knowing before they came back, in no way took the free will of any.

The question should be more of why does God give us free will knowing that some will and some will not use it to destroy themselves. Not that him knowing that some will destroy themselves is his fault.

 

[rinnie]

A good example in the bible is this. Jesus picked 12 Apostles. He wanted or predestined them all to be his followers.

Judas choose to turn from Jesus and let the Devil enter into him.

Peter was also predestined to be a follower of Jesus, he indeed failed at times because of his own free will. Jesus did not make him deny him, any more then he made Judas sell him out. He never predestined either of them to do this. But by free will the predestination that God chooses for us is overturned by our own free will.

But now Judas who was predestined to be a follower of God, did not take what God wanted for him, but took the evil path.

Where Peter stumbled and fell, united his own free will with the Predestined will of God and did as God wanted.

Another wards God predestines us all to be united with him. We are all on even ground, but we can turn away from God and choose our own desires instead of what God desires for us. And he sees this all before we even begin.

So I believe Judas and Peter were predestined to be Apostles, But by free will Judas choose not to unite his free will with Gods, while Peter did. But while God wanted them to both succeed, he put their free will in their own hands to unite with him or to stray from his will.

So Peter’s free will to unite with God was as free, as Judas free will to part from God, But that in no way means God choose that. He predestined them both to choose them, but by the result of free will one pulled away. And God being God seeing this ahead of time, and although did not will this, and knowing this would and did happen, still gave them the chance. Which is what we all get.

The chance to sin or not sin has to be given, to choose God or reject him has to be given. God predestines us all to be with him, but although he creates us all for this, by giving us free will changes what he predestines, but by our choice. But by his power to give us choice. What he saw could be and should be, and what he wanted failed, because he gave us free will, and we did not choose what he wanted.

Although God can control us, he will not.