God's Foreknowledge and Free Will Vs Choice

[oldcelt]

Sorry he did not created the damned, the damned created it for themselves, by rejecting God.

God created us all for heaven, he wants no one to go to hell. You continue to teach opposite from Church teaching.

Again Council of Orange (529AD). I am sorry for your inability to understand this, not do I have any power to make something so logical to myself, logical to you.

The whole line of teaching is illogical. You cannot predestine some to glory and some to damnation and NOT be the causation of either. Further, once a deity preordains a single event on this earth, that deity has irreparably interfered with the free will of all mankind. All occurrences after that single interference are influenced by that deity’s intervention.
It matters not which Council, or philosopher defended this or that version of predestination…and there are numerous versions and NO official decision by the Church regarding precisely how it works…the entire concept eliminates free will…period.

John

 

[davidv]

It is very related since it question God’s justice since God at least within your system of belief could create another creation.

This does not explain how it is related.

 

[thinkandmull]

The whole line of teaching is illogical. You cannot predestine some to glory and some to damnation and NOT be the causation of either. Further, once a deity preordains a single event on this earth, that deity has irreparably interfered with the free will of all mankind. All occurrences after that single interference are influenced by that deity’s intervention.
It matters not which Council, or philosopher defended this or that version of predestination…and there are numerous versions and NO official decision by the Church regarding precisely how it works…the entire concept eliminates free will…period.

John

Again are arguing against Augustine and Aquinas. Catholics don’t have to believe their teachings on predestination. Why is this so hard for you?

 

[thinkandmull]

To ordain: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce Not foresee…two completely different powers. The Christian God saw this from all eternity and still created the damned. There is no logical way around that.

John

You are just quoting an Encyclopedia. The *New Catholic Encyclopedia *is more favorable to Molinism. Anyhow, the eternal knowledge of what happens in history is posterior to the will to create. So your objection has no validity

 

[oldcelt]

Again are arguing against Augustine and Aquinas. Catholics don’t have to believe their teachings on predestination. Why is this so hard for you?

Very simple…why did this supposed god ignore an entire continent? Having been an archaeologist, I’d like to hear anyone’s answer.

John

 

[Gorgias]

Very simple…why did this supposed god ignore an entire continent? Having been an archaeologist, I’d like to hear anyone’s answer.

This does not imply that He ‘condemned’ an entire [population of] an entire continent. The Church does not teach that those who never heard the teachings of Jesus are condemned to hell (if that’s the bee in your bonnet).

More to the point, though, I would argue that your assertion is inaccurate. God’s plan of salvation started with one couple, and gradually worked its way up (family, tribe, nation) to the point where today, it is the entire population of the entire world.

We’re not talking about “ignoring a continent” – we’re talking about progressive and ever-expanding revelation.

 

[oldcelt]

This does not imply that He ‘condemned’ an entire [population of] an entire continent. The Church does not teach that those who never heard the teachings of Jesus are condemned to hell (if that’s the bee in your bonnet).

More to the point, though, I would argue that your assertion is inaccurate. God’s plan of salvation started with one couple, and gradually worked its way up (family, tribe, nation) to the point where today, it is the entire population of the entire world.

We’re not talking about “ignoring a continent” – we’re talking about progressive and ever-expanding revelation.

Then I’ll state, as I have before…predestination of any form is entirely inconsistent with free will. If you predestine some for glory you predestine the others for a different fate, whether you specify it or not. It is not necessary to receive divine revelation to see that my statement is logical.
Further, if a deity immutably preordains (causes) all future events, as is taught by the church, free will cannot exist. Why? Because the deity has set the conditions under which all of humanity must function and irreversibly influenced all future decisions.
You can’t have free will and divine control.

 

[rinnie]

All human suffering for a simple test, one person could perform the test and the rest pay the price. Are you serious?

Yes, and ONE suffered and paid for the price of ALL sin’s of Man. And I am serious.

 

[rinnie]

Actually you could not be more wrong. You seem to be blaming the Church for the Calvin or Luther definition.

CCC 600 could not be more clear.

This is what the RCC teaches.Original sin indeed makes us unable to reach salvation WITHOUT being MOVED by the GRACE of God.

The Church teaches rather dogmatically on how God predestines the elect. Catholics believe God predestines no one to go to hell and takes no pleasure to mans sin.

We not only believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, But even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing they are Anathema.
Council of Orange (529AD).

The Church teaches God gives EVERYONE SUFFICIENT GRACE to all the Freedom to turn to God and be saved.

Positive Conditional Reprobation

When God created the world, he being omniscience foresaw the reprobates rejection to is grace and let them us their freedom to do so.

Yet God still grants that to be saved he still gives them sufficient grace.

So this pretty much disagrees with everything you just said.

 

[rinnie]

The whole line of teaching is illogical. You cannot predestine some to glory and some to damnation and NOT be the causation of either. Further, once a deity preordains a single event on this earth, that deity has irreparably interfered with the free will of all mankind. All occurrences after that single interference are influenced by that deity’s intervention.
It matters not which Council, or philosopher defended this or that version of predestination…and there are numerous versions and NO official decision by the Church regarding precisely how it works…the entire concept eliminates free will…period.

John

As I just posted, you claim it does not exist explaining how it works. But you either refuse to read it, or you somehow cannot comprehend what it says. I am not sure at this point.

The CCC is the official decision of the RCC.

 

[rinnie]

Very simple…why did this supposed god ignore an entire continent? Having been an archaeologist, I’d like to hear anyone’s answer.

John

Also may I add, the world will not end until the word of God has reached the ends of the world. So to answer your question, his Apostles were told to go and teach to the WHOLE world.

People are still as we speak learning of the Goodness and Grace of God. And by the way the end of the world has not happened yet. So lets not judge the Good Lord unjustly.

 

[oldcelt]

When God created the world, he being omniscience foresaw the reprobates rejection to is grace and let them us their freedom to do so.

I comprehend it quite well, with infallible foreknowledge, this deity created the damned and the conditions under which they would function.
I know what is in the CCC and the Catholic Encyclopedia, since I own the first and can access the second. Both are confirmed to be in line with the teachings of the Church.

John

 

[Tom_Baum]

Sorry he did not created the damned, the damned created it for themselves, by rejecting God.

God created us all for heaven, he wants no one to go to hell. You continue to teach opposite from Church teaching.

Again Council of Orange (529AD). I am sorry for your inability to understand this, not do I have any power to make something so logical to myself, logical to you.

Do you think/believe that God is Omniscient?

If you do, wouldn’t that mean those whom you refer to as “the damned created it for themselves” would be known to God even before God created them?

Since “God created us all for heaven”, as you say, and God, being Omniscient would “know” about those whom you refer to as “the damned created it for themselves”, could be that God maybe took ALL of this into consideration when God came up with God’s Plan.

God’s “last word”, so to speak, on this, could very well be a surprise that, at present, many seem to think God incapable of actually bringing about which is what you said God created us all for.

As you said, “GOD CREATED US ALL FOR HEAVEN”, emphasis mine, maybe God’s Will will be done and we can, at the least, listen to what Jesus taught us to pray for and actually pray for that.

“…Thy Kingdom come, The Will be done…”, as Jesus taught us and as it is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes, and ONE suffered and paid for the price of ALL sin’s of Man. And I am serious.

You say that you are serious but do you actually believe that “the price of ALL sin’s of Man” have been “paid for” and that the “ransom” is, indeed, PAID IN FULL for ALL, so to speak?

Lots of people say something such as you said but then they add something such as: except for, as long as, and other qualifiers.

Do you " believe" what you so simply wrote or are you also one to add on to the sheer simplicity and beauty of what you wrote?

 

[Gorgias]

if a deity immutably preordains (causes) all future events

This is your problem, right there. To ‘preordain’ is not to ‘cause’. In fact, ‘preordination’ only presents a logical problem when viewed from within the framework of time. Since this is the perspective from which you argue ‘predestination’, it seems illogical and contradictory to you. That makes sense.

However, ‘predestination’, from the perspective of God – outside our space/time framework – is neither illogical nor contradictory. It does not happen, strictly speaking, ‘pre-’ anything. It appears to be ‘pre-’, but only from our human perspective. From God’s perspective – outside our temporal framework – it is simply a recognition of what actually happens to us. It does not ‘cause’ or ‘force’ the events, nor does it impair our free will in actualizing these events. But hey, I get it: if you insist on seeing ‘preordination’ only from the perspective of our human experience, it looks pretty bad.

It is not necessary to receive divine revelation to see that my statement is logical.

Logical, true – but constrained in our temporal framework. It’s illogical when you realize that preordination only makes sense in God’s framework (which is eternity itself).

Because the deity has set the conditions under which all of humanity must function and irreversibly influenced all future decisions.
You can’t have free will and divine control.

Not ‘set’, but ‘observed’. Not ‘influenced’, but ‘witnessed’. Not ‘control’, but ‘presence.’

 

[oldcelt]

This is your problem, right there. To ‘preordain’ is not to ‘cause’. In fact, ‘preordination’ only presents a logical problem when viewed from within the framework of time. Since this is the perspective from which you argue ‘predestination’, it seems illogical and contradictory to you. That makes sense.

However, ‘predestination’, from the perspective of God – outside our space/time framework – is neither illogical nor contradictory. It does not happen, strictly speaking, ‘pre-’ anything. It appears to be ‘pre-’, but only from our human perspective. From God’s perspective – outside our temporal framework – it is simply a recognition of what actually happens to us. It does not ‘cause’ or ‘force’ the events, nor does it impair our free will in actualizing these events. But hey, I get it: if you insist on seeing ‘preordination’ only from the perspective of our human experience, it looks pretty bad.

Logical, true – but constrained in our temporal framework. It’s illogical when you realize that preordination only makes sense in God’s framework (which is eternity itself).

Not ‘set’, but ‘observed’. Not ‘influenced’, but ‘witnessed’. Not ‘control’, but ‘presence.’

You are trying the old time dodge, aren’t you? Even if we assume that all of creation was accomplished in a micro-second, that does not clear that deity of responsibility. Since that deity can see all infinity in every possible direction…the same deity knew and caused the outcome, according to the teachings of the Church.
On the subject of time…did not Jesus say that he would leave a teacher behind? Is not that teacher the Holy Spirit? If so, is the Holy Spirit not with us in your belief? Was not Jesus with us? etc., etc., all these are time constraints on one of the Trinity…there are many more…if you believe anything that was written…which I no longer do.
Logic defies it all.

John

 

[Gorgias]

You are trying the old time dodge, aren’t you?

John,

Characterizing others’ assertions as ‘dodges’ doesn’t exactly lead to productive dialogue.

Even if we assume that all of creation was accomplished in a micro-second, that does not clear that deity of responsibility.

Primary and secondary causation.

Since that deity can see all infinity in every possible direction…the same deity knew and caused the outcome, according to the teachings of the Church.

‘Caused’ in the sense that He created it, set it in motion, imbued it with free will (in the case of humans) and allowed it to act freely. Not ‘caused’ it in the sense, as some medieval Islamic philosophers taught, that God literally was the direct cause of each and every action such that all action was directly imputable to Him.

all these are time constraints on one of the Trinity

The Holy Spirit participates within the context of our temporal framework. It does not follow logically, though, that it is constrained by time.

if you believe anything that was written…which I no longer do.

Yeah, you’ve made that abundantly clear.

 

[rinnie]

Do you think/believe that God is Omniscient?

If you do, wouldn’t that mean those whom you refer to as “the damned created it for themselves” would be known to God even before God created them?

Since “God created us all for heaven”, as you say, and God, being Omniscient would “know” about those whom you refer to as “the damned created it for themselves”, could be that God maybe took ALL of this into consideration when God came up with God’s Plan.

God’s “last word”, so to speak, on this, could very well be a surprise that, at present, many seem to think God incapable of actually bringing about which is what you said God created us all for.

As you said, “GOD CREATED US ALL FOR HEAVEN”, emphasis mine, maybe God’s Will will be done and we can, at the least, listen to what Jesus taught us to pray for and actually pray for that.

“…Thy Kingdom come, The Will be done…”, as Jesus taught us and as it is written, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

I don’t really understand what you are saying here or asking. Could you be more clear. If you are saying God created some people as damned I totally disagree with you. God created us all equal.

If a person chooses to sin and turn away from God they did that to themselves. It has nothing to do with God. The damned choose sin over God. God has nothing to do with mans free will to sin.

 

[rinnie]

You say that you are serious but do you actually believe that “the price of ALL sin’s of Man” have been “paid for” and that the “ransom” is, indeed, PAID IN FULL for ALL, so to speak?

Lots of people say something such as you said but then they add something such as: except for, as long as, and other qualifiers.

Do you " believe" what you so simply wrote or are you also one to add on to the sheer simplicity and beauty of what you wrote?

Believe every single word. There is no sin that we can do that will not be forgiven by God if we want it. When Jesus died on the cross it was by that death that our sin can even be forgiven. Man has no power to forgive sins, only God can do so. And it is by the death of his Son that made the forgiveness of sins possible.

There is only one Sin that cannot be forgiven, which of course makes sense, which is to reject God. Because how could someone want forgiveness for their sin From God if they don’t even believe in him.

But every word. God paid the price. We go to him, ask him to forgive us, and by his power of the Holy Spirit he gives us the grace to stop the sin, and be one with him again.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I don’t really understand what you are saying here or asking. Could you be more clear. If you are saying God created some people as damned I totally disagree with you. God created us all equal.

If a person chooses to sin and turn away from God they did that to themselves. It has nothing to do with God. The damned choose sin over God. God has nothing to do with mans free will to sin.

I am simply saying that if God is Omniscient than God “knows” everything: past, present and future.

Is this what you think/believe Omniscient means or do you have a different definition or perspective on Omniscience?

If you think/believe that Omniscience is simply to “KNOW EVERYTHING: PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE” than that would mean that God “knew”, quite simply, everything about everyone even before anyone did anything, very simple, actually, even if it is beyond our understanding to “know” how God can be Omniscient and us having free will.

Knowing what something means (definition) does NOT necessarily mean that someone “knows” how it can be.