God's Foreknowledge and Free Will Vs Choice

[Bahman]

God could do anything he chooses. But he choose to create a world that was good and free from sin, because of the fall (original sin) entered the world. And yes God knew when giving Man free will to sin or not to sin there would be consequences, and gave him sufficient grace to turn away from his sin. What is your problem with that?

How you even got me saying God predestines no one to hell, mean a denial of hell, or no purpose for hell makes like no sense. The purpose of hell is for people who choose to be separated from God with their own free will. How can a persons choice to not want God, change the mind of God to want the person. Makes no sense what so ever.

Again God could create anything he wants. But we know what he did create and live in his creation. We don’t have the ability to create as God creates, and trust him completely.

Deal or not deal, truly could we look at it that way? Why not. We do have a God that gives us commands and we have free will to follow them or not. you follow him, you got the real deal, you reject him and you get to deal with yourself. Either you are god or he is God. No biggie. You choose him you get him, you reject him, you don’t get him. Why does that sound so unreasonable to you?

We owe God everything, the air we breath, the love we have the goodness in our life. But when you love someone as we love him, although we indeed owe him EVERYTHING, it is a debt that can never be paid enough.

Someone asked one day God how much do you love me, He stretched out his hands on the cross and said this much. Died for all men, Men who love him, Men who hate him.

Simple, create a creation which no one commit original sin and there is no need for God grace and suffering. There is no use for hell since no one turn away from God. This sounds quite plausible since your God is all powerful.

 

[rinnie]

You continue to ask could God have created a world without giving people free will. The answer is yes, but God did not choose to create a world without giving people free will. If you want that answer no one can truly give you the reason you want.

We only know that God created a world and gave us free will because he wanted us to FREELY choose him. He wants us, and wants us to want him. But he loves us enough to not push himself on us.

But God could not have created a world with free will, and then not let Man use it to follow him or reject him. That is impossible. What good would there be to have free will, and yet no be able to use it. It would be impossible.

You cannot give someone free will to do or not do something, and then prevent them from doing something. That does not make sense. To give free will, but then prevent free will takes away free will completely.

 

[rinnie]

Simple, create a creation which no one commit original sin and there is no need for God grace and suffering. There is no use for hell since no one turn away from God. This sounds quite plausible since your God is all powerful.

But that is not what he wanted. He did not want to take away free will. He came to give all men freedom. He did not create us as slaves with no choice.

You seem to have a problem with God giving us the freedom to choose him or to reject him. Why do you feel we have to have a God who forces his will on us? Why do you feel that him giving us power takes away his power? And why do you seem to feel a God who gives us no power or freedom is better then a God who gives us what we want, not what he wants for us?

Why do you feel he is so wrong to let people enter hell and be without him, and it would be so much better for them to suffer and be forced to enter heaven with him with eternal life with him, if they hate him?

 

[oldcelt]

Actually you could not be more wrong. You seem to be blaming the Church for the Calvin or Luther definition.

CCC 600 could not be more clear.

This is what the RCC teaches.Original sin indeed makes us unable to reach salvation WITHOUT being MOVED by the GRACE of God.

The Church teaches rather dogmatically on how God predestines the elect. Catholics believe God predestines no one to go to hell and takes no pleasure to mans sin.

We not only believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, But even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing they are Anathema.
Council of Orange (529AD).

The Church teaches God gives EVERYONE SUFFICIENT GRACE to all the Freedom to turn to God and be saved.

Positive Conditional Reprobation

When God created the world, he being omniscience foresaw the reprobates rejection to is grace and let them us their freedom to do so.

Yet God still grants that to be saved he still gives them sufficient grace.

So this pretty much disagrees with everything you just said.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. **For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the predestined is unchangeable, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations. **Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience. Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names and their entire career on earth, should be present before the Divine mind from all eternity. Naturally, human curiosity is eager for definite information about the absolute as well as the relative number of the elect. How high should the absolute number be estimated? But it would be idle and useless to undertake calculations and to guess at so and so many millions or billions of predestined. St. Thomas (I, Q. xxiii, a. 7) mentions the opinion of some theologians that as many men will be saved as there are fallen angels, while others held that the number of predestined will equal the number of the faithful angels.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

If the number of predestined is absolute and unchangeable from all eternity, then so is the number of the damned. In other words, the Christian God created with full, infallible, knowledge that certain individuals would be damned.

 

[rinnie]

Simple, create a creation which no one commit original sin and there is no need for God grace and suffering. There is no use for hell since no one turn away from God. This sounds quite plausible since your God is all powerful.

By the way he did create this world. But Man refused to accept it. The garden was indeed this world. But Man felt he could do much better then God, so God let him try. And Man failed. But God loved Man enough to take him back in his grace. Yes he loved us that much.

He made himself Man and died for the sins of man. so that we could enter heaven.

Did God have to die? No. Because Man did not have to sin, but because of that sin, he paid that price also.

God has free will, and created man in his image. He gave us the same free will that he has. Just as we cannot push our free will on man, God does not push his free will on us.

 

[oldcelt]

We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. **According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784), all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact (Denz., n. 607). Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil (Denz., n. 797). Just as it is God’s true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794), not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096), or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294), though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795). Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect (Denz., n. 322), yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816). Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363), so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321). God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins **(Denz., n. 322), though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807), or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827). As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631). Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect (Denz., nn. 805 sq., 825 sq.).

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

The doctrine makes no logical sense…an individual that is preordained at creation cannot function under free will. If that person were to do so they would destroy God’s omniscience, immutable preordination and omnipotence.

 

[rinnie]

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

If the number of predestined is absolute and unchangeable from all eternity, then so is the number of the damned. In other words, the Christian God created with full, infallible, knowledge that certain individuals would be damned.

Who disagrees with this. We know God knows what will happen before it happens. You still have no case here. If you are saying God knows how it is all going to end no Catholic in the world disagrees with you.

Because the predestined is absolute and unchangeable from all eternity, in no way says God knowing how it ended caused it to end.

You are saying because God sees how it ends he made it happened and wanted it to happen. That is so wrong.

God predestined no one to hell. Because he saw that they predestined themselves to hell in no way changes his will that they choose him.

Back to square one, because you read the last page of the book first, in no way means if you go back and read the book from the beginning you can change the last page. Which is what you are saying of God, because he knows how the book ended as you wrote it, he is to blame for your outcome. Again only possible if there is no free will, which there is.

 

[Gorgias]

The doctrine makes no logical sense…an individual that is preordained at creation cannot function under free will. If that person were to do so they would destroy God’s omniscience, immutable preordination and omnipotence.

Sure it does: what is ‘preordained’ is what God sees – the free will choices of individuals. Having access to this knowledge, God ‘preordains’ the results. The results, then, are both chosen freely by the individual and inerrantly ‘foreseen’ by God.

 

[rinnie]

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

The doctrine makes no logical sense…an individual that is preordained at creation cannot function under free will. If that person were to do so they would destroy God’s omniscience, immutable preordination and omnipotence.

So then are you saying I have no free will? Or are you saying there is no way God can know if in the end I will choose my sin or him?

And how could God be omniscience if he did not know the end?

 

[oldcelt]

Sure it does: what is ‘preordained’ is what God sees – the free will choices of individuals. Having access to this knowledge, God ‘preordains’ the results. The results, then, are both chosen freely by the individual and inerrantly ‘foreseen’ by God.

To ordain: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce Not foresee…two completely different powers. The Christian God saw this from all eternity and still created the damned. There is no logical way around that.

John

 

[oldcelt]

So then are you saying I have no free will? Or are you saying there is no way God can know if in the end I will choose my sin or him?

And how could God be omniscience if he did not know the end?

I am saying that if a deity knows this and preordains the future there can be no free will. I believe in total free will because my version of god preordained nothing.

 

[rinnie]

I am saying that if a deity knows this and preordains the future there can be no free will. I believe in total free will because my version of god preordained nothing.

What now is has already been, what is to be, already is, and God restores what would otherwise be displaced.

 

[oldcelt]

What now is has already been, what is to be, already is, and God restores what would otherwise be displaced.

So it is all written, and cannot be changed…then free will is illusionary under such a system.

John

 

[Bahman]

By the way he did create this world. But Man refused to accept it. The garden was indeed this world. But Man felt he could do much better then God, so God let him try. And Man failed. But God loved Man enough to take him back in his grace. Yes he loved us that much.

He didn’t love us enough. Why we should go through the state of confusion, lack of experiencing God, and suffering.

He made himself Man and died for the sins of man. so that we could enter heaven.

He didn’t need so. This story makes no sense to me. We are sinful, just forgive. Why bother about coming and dying.

Did God have to die? No. Because Man did not have to sin, but because of that sin, he paid that price also.

God by definition cannot die. Please read the previous comment.

God has free will, and created man in his image. He gave us the same free will that he has. Just as we cannot push our free will on man, God does not push his free will on us.

How God cannot do sin and we can if we are sharing the same free will? You could say ignorance causes us to perform sin. Why we should be punished because of our ignorance then?

 

[rinnie]

He didn’t love us enough. Why we should go through the state of confusion, lack of experiencing God, and suffering. Answer. The same reason we all go through the state of confusion and suffering, and experiencing God. You choose sin or God its that simple. Why does parent punish a child for being bad? I guess they don’t love them enough either. So what do not discipline? A good Father shows no discipline? By what definition?

He didn’t need so. This story makes no sense to me. We are sinful, just forgive. Why bother about coming and dying. Answer: Because he felt no better way to show his Love for us then to lay down his life for us. You know a better way then to choose to die for someone? Lets hear it!

God by definition cannot die. Please read the previous comment. God is human and Divine. God died in his earthly body. Death on the cross. He rose again by his Divine Nature. So I disagree with you. You seem to deny the human nature of God.

How God cannot do sin and we can if we are sharing the same free will? You could say ignorance causes us to perform sin. Why we should be punished because of our ignorance then?

Answer: He showed us in the agony in the garden. Funny this is the time he was given his test. As the Devil said, get out of this you can call on tons of angels to do whatever you want, and he could, but he showed we can also not choose sin in a human nature. He did it.

Although he had no sin of his own, he died for the sin of many.

(sorry read from the beginning where I put answer, I still cannot figure out how to do this right)

 

[rinnie]

To ordain: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce Not foresee…two completely different powers. The Christian God saw this from all eternity and still created the damned. There is no logical way around that.

John

Sorry he did not created the damned, the damned created it for themselves, by rejecting God.

God created us all for heaven, he wants no one to go to hell. You continue to teach opposite from Church teaching.

Again Council of Orange (529AD). I am sorry for your inability to understand this, not do I have any power to make something so logical to myself, logical to you.

 

[Bahman]

Answer: He showed us in the agony in the garden. Funny this is the time he was given his test. As the Devil said, get out of this you can call on tons of angels to do whatever you want, and he could, but he showed we can also not choose sin in a human nature. He did it.

Although he had no sin of his own, he died for the sin of many.

(sorry read from the beginning where I put answer, I still cannot figure out how to do this right)

All human suffering for a simple test, one person could perform the test and the rest pay the price. Are you serious?

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is written, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.

Since God is Omniscient and “knew” that some would never “repent” in any of the “ways” that we can think of, God has “Thought” of “Ways” that are truly beyond our finite “thoughts and ways” for God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, to truly bring to Fruition God’s Will as stated, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved”.

Exactly how God will bring God’s Will, in this matter, to Fruition, I do not know, but I believe that God’s Will will come to Fruition.

Faith, Hope and Love.

I have Faith that God has come up with a Plan truly worthy of a God Who Loves His Creation, we are part of God’s Creation but we are not ALL of God’s Creation.

I believe that my Hope is beyond what many think is possible but why have a Hope that is not truly worthy of a God Who Is a Being of Love.

It is written that God created us in “His Image and Likeness” and I believe that this “Image and Likeness” is LOVE, therefore even if the only thing left of some of us is the “Image and Likeness” of God after ALL of the “crud” is burned off, there will be something left of ALL.

 

[davidv]

All human suffering for a simple test, one person could perform the test and the rest pay the price. Are you serious?

I don’t believe this even begins to address the points raised in the post this was in response to.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t believe this even begins to address the points raised in the post this was in response to.

It is very related since it question God’s justice since God at least within your system of belief could create another creation.