God's Mercy and God's justice

[DanAl]

These question still remain. I was answering subquestions it seems implied in the responses by others to the OP.

I still don’t know the answers to the OP questions!

Thanks for the clarification. Assuming the validity of opinion among many medieval/contemporary thinkers God chose not to give efficient graces to all in order to manifest his justice and that is that.

And if a person asks why God chose to do it this way rather than another way, we could supply reasons, but a regress would start (“why choose those reasons instead of another?” for example). So at the end of the day is better just to say that ultimately God chose to do it that way, period. That way would preserve his freedom and avoid a potential infinite regress of explanations. Hope that helps.

 

[Tom_Baum]

This is the opinion of theologians. An opinion I agree with. God has a nordained will and permissive will- what God ordains and what God permits respecting free will.

Well, if you agree with it than you should be able to explain what you agree with in non-theological language, could you do that?

And in doing that could you give an answer to the questions I proposed?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes.

If Judas is the son of perdition in the literal sense-
So you would say Judas rejected graces.
And Peter did not.

But the Father gave to the Son. And the Son said He did not lose those the Father gave the Son.

You could say Jesus might have forgiven Judas from the Cross but I suspect He would let us know this, why would it be hidden from us.

You wrote, “You could say Jesus might have forgiven Judas from the Cross but I suspect He would let us know this, why would it be hidden from us.”

Could be that Jesus wants us to “think about” things, rather than being mindless followers of things written in stone, Jesus did say something about “writing it on our hearts”, didn’t He?

What we think concerning Judas and whether we believe that Jesus may or may not have forgiven Judas and/or whether we believe that Jesus could or could not have forgiven Judas could speak volumes about our thoughts/beliefs concerning God’s MERCY and for that matter what we think/believe concerning God’s Justice.

Concerning, “If Judas is the son of perdition in the literal sense”.

If you remember Jesus is reported to have said to Peter, “Get behind me satan…”, do you think that Jesus was saying this in the “literal sense”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Thanks for the clarification. Assuming the validity of opinion among many medieval/contemporary thinkers God chose not to give efficient graces to all in order to manifest his justice and that is that.

And if a person asks why God chose to do it this way rather than another way, we could supply reasons, but a regress would start (“why choose those reasons instead of another?” for example). So at the end of the day is better just to say that ultimately God chose to do it that way, period. That way would preserve his freedom and avoid a potential infinite regress of explanations. Hope that helps.

And God may have come up with a PLAN, before creation itself, that will surprise many who think that they have God all figured out.

 

[oldcelt]

No matter what “words” one may use to skirt around the issue, if God is truly Omniscient than God “knows” even before God creates anyone just “where” that “anyone” will end up, according to what some think the endgame of God’s Plan is, correct or not?

Could be that God’s “predestination” is that God looks past what many think God incapable of looking past and God’s Plan is just slightly different than some think possible.

Not everyone but so many seem to think that God is a loser, I disagree.

You have brought us to one of my greatest objections to Catholic/Christian teaching. An omniscient creator cannot escape responsibility for the outcome of his creation; be it a planet, solar system or a human being. He knew all in advance, still created as he did (causation), immutably preordained all future events, then supposedly left man with free will. This despite the fact that he already knew the outcome from the instant of creation.
The Christian/Catholic God is a puppet master from afar. There cannot logically be free will under an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator.

 

[tonyrey]

You have brought us to one of my greatest objections to Catholic/Christian teaching. An omniscient creator cannot escape responsibility for the outcome of his creation; be it a planet, solar system or a human being. He knew all in advance, still created as he did (causation), immutably preordained all future events, then supposedly left man with free will. This despite the fact that he already knew the outcome from the instant of creation.
The Christian/Catholic God is a puppet master from afar. There cannot logically be free will under an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator.

The deist’s God gives no indication of knowing anything, having any power or being anywhere! From the sublime to the ridiculous…

Nor does it make sense to believe the omnipotent Creator** cannot **share power! What is the mysterious obstacle?

 

[tonyrey]

You wrote, “You could say Jesus might have forgiven Judas from the Cross but I suspect He would let us know this, why would it be hidden from us.”

Could be that Jesus wants us to “think about” things, rather than being mindless followers of things written in stone, Jesus did say something about “writing it on our hearts”, didn’t He?

What we think concerning Judas and whether we believe that Jesus may or may not have forgiven Judas and/or whether we believe that Jesus could or could not have forgiven Judas could speak volumes about our thoughts/beliefs concerning God’s MERCY and for that matter what we think/believe concerning God’s Justice.

Concerning, “If Judas is the son of perdition in the literal sense”.

If you remember Jesus is reported to have said to Peter, “Get behind me satan…”, do you think that Jesus was saying this in the “literal sense”?

The obvious answer is that Peter was possessed. It is unreasonable to think he was literally Satan and Judas is definitely damned.

 

[tonyrey]

I recently pointed out that we are predestined to have free will and determine our own destiny.

Why should knowledge be equated with causation?

Could be that God’s “predestination” is that God looks past what many think God incapable of looking past and God’s Plan is just slightly different than some think possible.

Then God’s Plan may well be that by sharing His power with us we have free will …

 

[shoe]

God could give graces to everyone which could have all accept Jesus.

I believe God gives the perfect amount of soul-saving grace to every individual to accept Jesus; but He also has given every individual the free-will choice to resist or ignore His grace, and consequently to reject Jesus.

Why does not God do this?

Same answer.

Is it because God’s justice must be satisfied?

Jesus satisfied God’s justice 2000 years ago by taking our place on the cross.

If so, how many people must go to hell for God’s justice to be satisfied?
If it is not quantity is it quality?

No one has to go to hell. The Bible says that "God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance”; therefore, those on the road leading to hell are going against the very will of God. God, as Ezekiel says, does not “take take pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Hell then is simply a place where wicked people want to be.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The obvious answer is that Peter was possessed. It is unreasonable to think he was literally Satan and Judas is definitely damned.

When you think about it, all Judas did was go to the authorities, and he told them where Jesus was. If the people in authority were looking for Jesus, why would it be wrong for Judas to inform them?

I am not sure how we can single Judas out, every time I sin, I also betray Jesus, and I have to hope that Jesus died for my sins too.

 

[josh987654321]

Hey Eric Hyom

When you think about it, all Judas did was go to the authorities, and he told them where Jesus was. If the people in authority were looking for Jesus, why would it be wrong for Judas to inform them?

If someone wanted to do an innocent man harm, would you believe it moral to aid them? and especially if the innocent man was your friend?

I am not sure how we can single Judas out, every time I sin, I also betray Jesus, and I have to hope that Jesus died for my sins too.

I agree, I believe there are many similarities between the denial of Peter and the betrayal of Judas, the difference was in how they responded to their consciences, which saved one and condemned the other. One sought forgiveness, the other escape.

The great tragedy of Judas, is that he could have been St Judas.

I believe the following will help -.

The Despair of Judas -
#12
#13

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[tonyrey]

I believe God gives the perfect amount of soul-saving grace to every individual to accept Jesus; but He also has given every individual the free-will choice to resist or ignore His grace, and consequently to reject Jesus.

Same answer.

Jesus satisfied God’s justice 2000 years ago by taking our place on the cross.

No one has to go to hell. The Bible says that "God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance”; therefore, those on the road leading to hell are going against the very will of God. God, as Ezekiel says, does not “take take pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Hell then is simply a place where wicked people want to be.

To blame God is to evade responsibility. Everyone else gets off scot free!

 

[tonyrey]

If someone wanted to do an innocent man harm, would you believe it moral to aid them? and especially if the innocent man was your friend?

I agree, I believe there are many similarities between the denial of Peter and the betrayal of Judas, the difference was in how they responded to their consciences, which saved one and condemned the other. One sought forgiveness, the other escape.

The great tragedy of Judas, is that he could have been St Judas.

I believe the following will help -.

The Despair of Judas -
#12
#13

The key words are:

** “Believe that your sins will never be greater than My infinite Mercy.**”

 

[oldcelt]

The deist’s God gives no indication of knowing anything, having any power or being anywhere! From the sublime to the ridiculous…

Nor does it make sense to believe the omnipotent Creator** cannot **share power! What is the mysterious obstacle?

Freewill in a pre-determined scenario is the obstacle…can’t happen. The Deist God creates.

 

[Richca]

You have brought us to one of my greatest objections to Catholic/Christian teaching. An omniscient creator cannot escape responsibility for the outcome of his creation; be it a planet, solar system or a human being. He knew all in advance, still created as he did (causation), immutably preordained all future events, then supposedly left man with free will. This despite the fact that he already knew the outcome from the instant of creation.
The Christian/Catholic God is a puppet master from afar. There cannot logically be free will under an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator.

This logic fails in a number of ways. To point out just one, God is perfectly and infinitely just. How could God punish or reward a person justly if that person is not responsible in some way for their actions? Do we convict and send people to prison here on earth for no cause? The logic you present here as if human beings have no free will or they are not responsible for their actions cannot be reconciled with God’s perfect justice.

 

[oldcelt]

This logic fails in a number of ways. To point out just one, God is perfectly and infinitely just. How could God punish or reward a person justly if that person is not responsible in some way for their actions? Do we convict and send people to prison here on earth for no cause? The logic you present here as if human beings have no free will or they are not responsible for their actions cannot be reconciled with God’s perfect justice.

I believe in absolute free will…that is why I don’t believe in a God that interferes with the human race. I was pointing out the inconsistencies in my former beliefs. Free will cannot exist under a God that infallibly foresees and immutably preordains all future events or predestines some to glory while leaving others to “accept” grace or perish. Too many things that just fail the logic test.

 

[fred_conty]

I believe in absolute free will…that is why I don’t believe in a God that interferes with the human race. I was pointing out the inconsistencies in my former beliefs. Free will cannot exist under a God that infallibly foresees and immutably preordains all future events or predestines some to glory while leaving others to “accept” grace or perish. Too many things that just fail the logic test.

Someday your eyes will open, like St. Thomas. He too had become a non believer.

May the true God bless you.

 

[oldcelt]

Someday your eyes will open, like St. Thomas. He too had become a non believer.

May the true God bless you.

It took me a journey of over 50 years to reach this point. Realization upon realization forced me to analyze what i had been taught. In any case, thank you for the blessing. The mere fact, in my belief, that God created this universe that I eventually occupied is quite a blessing in itself.

Be well.

 

[opusAquinas]

I believe God gives the perfect amount of soul-saving grace to every individual to accept Jesus; but He also has given every individual the free-will choice to resist or ignore His grace, and consequently to reject Jesus.

Same answer.

Jesus satisfied God’s justice 2000 years ago by taking our place on the cross.

No one has to go to hell. The Bible says that "God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance”; therefore, those on the road leading to hell are going against the very will of God. God, as Ezekiel says, does not “take take pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Hell then is simply a place where wicked people want to be.

So you don’t agree with passive reprobation?

 

[Tom_Baum]

You have brought us to one of my greatest objections to Catholic/Christian teaching. An omniscient creator cannot escape responsibility for the outcome of his creation; be it a planet, solar system or a human being. He knew all in advance, still created as he did (causation), immutably preordained all future events, then supposedly left man with free will. This despite the fact that he already knew the outcome from the instant of creation.
The Christian/Catholic God is a puppet master from afar. There cannot logically be free will under an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator.

You wrote, “The Christian/Catholic God is a puppet master from afar. There cannot logically be free will under an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator.”

And in writing this, have either implied or out and out said that from what I have written, this is what I have said, I TOTALLY DISAGREE, I have not said this, you have.

As far as you saying “logically”, to me all that that means, is that it could be beyond our understanding how this could be, is that what you mean by “logically”?

So many people, believers and non-believers alike, seem to think that if they can not figure something out than it is impossible for God to do.

Maybe, just maybe, God is a little “bigger” than we think God to be.

If God were as “small” as some seem to think, than this could very well be the case but I believe that God Is “an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator”, Who has given us free will but has also come up with a “PLAN” in which ALL will, ultimately, choose God using their God-given free will.

The “fact” that many, believer and non-believer alike, think that this is impossible, does not in fact make it impossible, it may just make it impossible for us to figure out but not for God to come up with a PLAN than does indeed unfold, with God’s Will coming to Fruition.

And by God’s Will I mean, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”