God's Mercy and God's justice

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tonyrey said:
The obvious answer is that Peter was possessed. It is unreasonable to think he was literally Satan and Judas is definitely damned.
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This is merely my opinion, but I do not think that Peter was possessed, only that he was thinking in line with satan, in that he, Peter, did not want Jesus going to the cross and satan definitely did not want Jesus going to the cross.

As far as, “Judas is definitely damned”, is this the “truth” as taught by tonyrey because it is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches?
 
tonyrey said:
Why should knowledge be equated with causation?
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You seem to be equating “causation” with knowledge, I never did, I just said that God knew even before God created someone that God knew, not that God caused, didn’t I?
tonyrey said:
Then God’s Plan may well be that by sharing His power with us we have free will …
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I have no idea what you mean by these words.

However “by sharing His power”, if God indeed does do this, could be that since God died for us that we may have the “power to die for others”.
 
Tom_Baum said:
God’s Mercy and God’s Justice are so intertwined as to be One.

Some seem to think that some will receive God’s Justice and others will receive God’s Mercy.

As in an either/or whereas it will be a both/and.

All will receive both God’s Justice and God’s Mercy.
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Richca said:
This logic fails in a number of ways. To point out just one, God is perfectly and infinitely just. How could God punish or reward a person justly if that person is not responsible in some way for their actions? Do we convict and send people to prison here on earth for no cause? The logic you present here as if human beings have no free will or they are not responsible for their actions cannot be reconciled with God’s perfect justice.
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You wrote, “Do we convict and send people to prison here on earth for no cause?”

Yes.

You also wrote, “This logic fails in a number of ways.”

It is written, “My Ways are NOT your ways and My Thoughts are NOT your thoughts”.

Could be when we have God “all figured out”, all that we have figured out is our own “conception” of God.
 
Tom_Baum said:
You seem to be equating “causation” with knowledge, I never did, I just said that God knew even before God created someone that God knew, not that God caused, didn’t I?
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I was not responding to you but to oldcelt who rejects Christianity and implied that Christian God is unjust:
You are ignoring the predestination doctrine accepted by the Church.
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I have no idea what you mean by these words.
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Giving us free will amounts to sharing (some of) His power with us.
However “by sharing His power”, if God indeed does do this, could be that since God died for us that we may have the “power to die for others”.
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Free will implies that we could choose to sacrifice ourselves for others but following His example we are now far more likely to do so .
 
Tom_Baum said:
This is merely my opinion, but I do not think that Peter was possessed, only that he was thinking in line with satan, in that he, Peter, did not want Jesus going to the cross and satan definitely did not want Jesus going to the cross.
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I was answering your question with my opinion:
Concerning, “If Judas is the son of perdition in the literal sense”.
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If you remember Jesus is reported to have said to Peter, “Get behind me satan…”, do you think that Jesus was saying this in the “literal sense”?
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As far as, “Judas is definitely damned”, is this the “truth” as taught by tonyrey because it is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches?
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If you mean that “Judas is definitely damned” please substantiate that it is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

It should not be necessary to point that the sarcasm in
the “truth” as taught by tonyrey
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is deplorable and contrary to the forum rule of courtesy… :tsktsk:
 
Tom_Baum said:
. . . God knew even before God created someone . .
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I have issues with the tense used here. I would say, God “knows”.
The present tense would seem preferable given that all creation is “now” for God.
We are created from eternity and in time.
God knows us from outside the time-line that includes our choices of who we wish to be.

:twocents:
 
Tom_Baum said:
Could be when we have God “all figured out”, all that we have figured out is our own “conception” of God.
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It has been said that a theologian reveals very little about God, but they reveal more of their own nature
 
davidv said:
The OP has been answered. The OP is built on the faulty assumption that God doesn’t give the grace needed to get to heaven.
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God decreed that some would receive efficacious grace.

How many did not receive it and why?

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
James Akin writes:
The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught [16].
 
opusAquinas said:
God decreed that some would receive efficacious grace.

How many did not receive it and why?

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm
James Akin writes:
The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught [16].
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Maybe both theories are wrong.
 
opusAquinas said:
I’ve read the replies so far and it does not answer my questions.

God gives some efficient grace and other sufficient grace. Why? Why not give all efficient grace?

God’s mercy is the efficient grace - God’s justice are those who receive His sufficient grace.
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The answer is found in the simple but sublime prayer given to us by Jesus:

“Forgive us as we forgive…”
 
opusAquinas said:
Yes all are given sufficient grace though Aquinas thought otherwise in a way.
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Aquinas is not God.

Our own sense of God’s justice and mercy, defines how we live our own lives. We would probably like our own thoughts on justice and mercy to be the same as God.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Aquinas is not God.

Our own sense of God’s justice and mercy, defines how we live our own lives. We would probably like our own thoughts on justice and mercy to be the same as God.
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Yes. The Council of Trent - it is dogma - all are given sufficient grace. Even pharaoh.
 
tonyrey said:
I was not responding to you but to oldcelt who rejects Christianity and implied that Christian God is unjust:
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Sorry about that, what it seems to me concerning oldcelt, is that he can not believe that God can be Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient and that we can at the same time have free will as opposed to God being “unjust”, in other words that we are no more than puppets on a string, God’s string.

oldcelt, if you read this, is what I am saying concerning your thoughts on our “free will”, pretty much on the money?
tonyrey said:
Giving us free will amounts to sharing (some of) His power with us.
Free will implies that we could choose to sacrifice ourselves for others but following His example we are now far more likely to do so .
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As I have said many times, I am hoping beyond what some think is hopeable for God’s Plan to be something to be truly thankful for.
 
tonyrey said:
I was answering your question with my opinion:
If you mean that “Judas is definitely damned” please substantiate that it is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

It should not be necessary to point that the sarcasm in is deplorable and contrary to the forum rule of courtesy… :tsktsk:
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You wrote, “If you mean that “Judas is definitely damned” please substantiate that it is the teaching of the Catholic Church.”

It was on your post numbered 47 that you wrote, “The obvious answer is that Peter was possessed. It is unreasonable to think he was literally Satan and Judas is definitely damned.”

Did I read it wrong or did you mean that “Judas is definitely damned”?

If I misunderstood what you wrote than I stand corrected but if you meant “Judas is definitely damned”, as you wrote, I was just pointing out that it is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, as I said.

The Catholic Church teaches that some are definitely in heaven with their canonizations but has NEVER declared anyone to be definitely in hell and that is what I was trying to point out.
 
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